# Price for gun rights is paid in PA. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005 "2009-04-04T22:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/101 "2009-04-05T19:11:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because it never happens. They were victimized because the killer DID have a gun, not because the victims did NOT. It never happens? Really? _Really?_ That’s a statement you want following you around in these debates in the future? It happened to me, FTR, so you are obviously incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/102 "2009-04-05T19:15:08Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Substitute freedom of speech or being allowed to get married or whatever for gun rights and you won’t think it’s fucked up. No. No. No! This really is a very simple question. To reiterate, I asked: [Quote=Kimmy\_Gibbler] Your rationale for permitting private gun possession must explain why we should tolerate the very demonstrable excess mortality that such a regime entails. [/Quote] I don’t think anyone suggests that there is a great deal of social ill in allowing people to choose their marriage partners (yes, there is some, domestic violence, etc., but nobody has seriously contended that it outweighs the benefits–as has been done for private gun possession). Freedom of speech carries with it a few more evils, and for the record, there are classes of speech we restrict because the social harm overwhelms the benefits: incitement to violence, child pornography, etc. etc. Don’t tell me “some people like guns.” I get that. Tell me why society should pretermit the very real dangers of gun possession just because some people have made an avocation out of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Sanity\_Challenged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Sanity\_Challenged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanity_Challenged)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/103 "2009-04-05T19:15:12Z")
Congratulations! You, dear reader, are being inducted into the Fighting Ignorance Hall of Fame, which recognizes that there is a price for setting up a public message board - that members will occasionally be exposed to ignorant bullshit masquerading as an attempt to fight ignorance. As a reader of **haymarketmartyr** ’s OP, you have made the ultimate sacrifice. Og bless you. Og bless the SDMB! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/104 "2009-04-05T19:18:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t want to ban guns. Perhaps not, but you are a confusing person. You are repeatedly capable of intelligent, considered, thoughtful postings, to the point of where in even in some cases where I am diametrically opposed to you on a subject, I can respect you and your posts. You have actually helped change my opinions politically on some subjects in the past. And yet on the subject of anything gun-related, you definitely present a very different face to the SDMB. I know my opinion doesn’t mean much, but posting is free. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/105 "2009-04-05T19:21:34Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > This is all absolutely meaningless hyperbole. It’s not the fucking NRA’s fault that the guy went nuts and started shooting people. This kind of naivete–although, pessimist that I am, I actually think it’s more likely to be dishonesty than naivete–is annoying enough. But when it’s used as a rationale to maintain a system that costs thousands of innocent lives every year, is beyond annoying. Argent, hon, you’re wrong. It is indeed the fault of the NRA and its members that the guy went all nuts and didn’t throw eggs at the officers, or spit at them and insult their mothers, he shot them with a gun. Their blood is on the hand of every bullshit asshole gun “rights” advocate in this country, including the squicky fuckers on this board who pretend that their “right” is some kind of patriotic duty that fulfills the letter (but ignores the spirit) of the Constitution, in much the same way that snakehandling fundies believe their practices are a religious duty mandated by the literal text of the bible. Every child that dies while playing with his daddies detachable penis, sorry, gun; every cop gunned down by an armed criminal; every domestic dustup that ends at the morgue; all that blood is your hands, Argent, and those of your fellow NRAers. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/106 "2009-04-05T21:46:37Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > No. No. No! This really is a very simple question. To reiterate, I asked: > > I don’t think anyone suggests that there is a great deal of social ill in allowing people to choose their marriage partners (yes, there is some, domestic violence, etc., but nobody has seriously contended that it outweighs the benefits–as has been done for private gun possession). Freedom of speech carries with it a few more evils, and for the record, there are classes of speech we restrict because the social harm overwhelms the benefits: incitement to violence, child pornography, etc. etc. > > Don’t tell me “some people like guns.” I get that. Tell me why society should pretermit the very real dangers of gun possession just because some people have made an avocation out of firearms. What makes you think I was attempting to answer you? ---
**Author:** ![SuntanTigerTamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@SuntanTigerTamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanTigerTamer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/107 "2009-04-05T22:52:45Z")
> **[BBC NEWS | Americas | US father 'shoots his children'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7984748.stm)** > > A father in Washington state is suspected of killing his five young children and himself after hearing his wife is leaving him. Another lone nut? Is that enough yet? Or do you guys need more? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/108 "2009-04-05T22:55:47Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > This kind of naivete–although, pessimist that I am, I actually think it’s more likely to be dishonesty than naivete–is annoying enough. But when it’s used as a rationale to maintain a system that costs thousands of innocent lives every year, is beyond annoying. > > Argent, hon, you’re wrong. It is indeed the fault of the NRA and its members that the guy went all nuts and didn’t throw eggs at the officers, or spit at them and insult their mothers, he shot them with a gun. > > Their blood is on the hand of every bullshit asshole gun “rights” advocate in this country, including the squicky fuckers on this board who pretend that their “right” is some kind of patriotic duty that fulfills the letter (but ignores the spirit) of the Constitution, in much the same way that snakehandling fundies believe their practices are a religious duty mandated by the literal text of the bible. > > Every child that dies while playing with his daddies detachable penis, sorry, gun; every cop gunned down by an armed criminal; every domestic dustup that ends at the morgue; all that blood is your hands, Argent, and those of your fellow NRAers. I seriously thought this was some kind of sarcasm or parody when I first read it. I was really disappointed when I realized it wasn’t, especially since I generally like you, Lissener. I can’t believe I’m even taking the time to debate the points you’ve brought up, but… If the blood is on the hands of the NRA and its members, it’s also on the hands of the Founding Fathers of the United States, since they’re the ones who put the Second Amendment in the Constitution; More people die every year in car accidents than by gunfire; should we ban cars? Way more people die from being fat lard-asses who gorge themselves with fatty food and die of obesity, diabetes and heart disease than by gunfire - should we ban all the fat, lazy lard-asses? The reason why gun rights advocates advocate for gun rights is because there are so many places in America where there ARE no gun rights. Including Washington DC and New York City, two places with much higher crime rates than gun-friendly states like Vermont or Indiana - guns are totally impossible to legally own over there, and yet…somehow…criminals continue killing people? How is this possible? Are those criminals all NRA members? Did the NRA put guns in their hands? The people in those crime zones, law abiding people, ought to have the right to defend themselves. Because obviously the criminals aren’t abiding by the law against owning guns - just like they are not abiding by the laws against murder, robbery and rape. Your post is so hopelessly naive. Go live in your little bliss-ninny fantasy world. Go put your head in the sand and hope that everything would just be stars and rainbows and unicorns if all the bad nasty evil guns were just taken away. (From the citizens - not the government, naturally, since governments never do anything bad with guns.) Yeah, the blood is on my hands. Right. I’ll cry myself to sleep every night. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/109 "2009-04-05T22:56:52Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > That’s kinda fucked up. You do realize that the crime rate is just basically a condensed statistical summary of actual people who are robbed, raped, beaten, murdered, etc. And you’d rather see more people be victims of violent crime as long as you get to keep your guns (and theoretically) keep yourself safe. Really? Yes, really. Sure, it’s nice to have a low crime rate. But not at the expense of my rights. I would never trade my right to keep and bear arms in exchange for a lower crime rate. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/110 "2009-04-05T22:58:10Z")
And I’d still love to see some kind of response to what I posted on the last page, though I’m sure it’ll never happen because it would cause the leftists’ heads to explode: > [@](#): > > I would love to see the reaction if the killer in question was a Muslim and he walked into a store yelling “Allah Akbar” and shooting people. Would the left wing posters on this board be calling for the national Muslim community and the national Muslim organizations to “take responsibility” for this? Would they suggest that the headquarters of the National Islamic Council put a “hall of fame” of all the Muslims that have committed horrible crimes? Would they say that Islam fosters a culture of violence and killing? > > No, they would say, “this was the work of one deranged individual. It didn’t have anything to do with his religion. The religion of Islam shouldn’t be blamed because of the acts of this one lunatic.” > > And they would be right. Some terrorists commit terror in the name of Islam, but for every one of them, there are many more Muslims who are just normal Americans trying to live a normal life. They don’t deserve to be tarred for the actions of a few terrorists. > > Why doesn’t this also apply to gun owners and NRA members? > > Or is there, I don’t know, a double standard at work here? ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/111 "2009-04-05T23:00:53Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Every child that dies while playing with his daddies detachable penis, sorry, gun; Is the fault of the gun owner for not properly storing a lethal weapon. Owning a gun is a responsibility that some people don’t take seriously enough. I’m not familiar with how easy it is to obtain a gun in this country, but it seems like there’s plenty of room to tighten controls without banning guns altogether. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanTigerTamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@SuntanTigerTamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanTigerTamer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/112 "2009-04-05T23:02:31Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > And I’d still love to see some kind of response to what I posted on the last page, though I’m sure it’ll never happen because it would cause the leftists’ heads to explode: Religion is selling God. An idea. A figment. The NRA is selling (don’t nitpick, you know what I mean) guns. Tangible weapons, designed specifically to put chunks of metal into flesh in as efficient a means possible. Yeah, you’re right, same thing. And my head remains as yet un-esploded… ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/113 "2009-04-05T23:08:58Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > And I’d still love to see some kind of response to what I posted on the last page, though I’m sure it’ll never happen because it would cause the leftists’ heads to explode … The NRA has actively opposed efforts to curb the proliferation of firearms. Islam has not facilitated the sort of killing spree you describe or impaired efforts to prevent it. (I am aware that this point has been and is capable of being controverted, and that those objections run the gamut from out-and-out prejudice to more measured and reasoned claims; for the purpose of this thread, I will accept Argent Towers’s apparent stipulation that this fictitious Islam-as-a-monolith does not promote or permit such incidents.) You seem to believe we are faulting the NRA because of the shooter’s beliefs. That is not the case. Rather, it is the NRA’s stance of opposing firearm regulations that begets their blameworthiness. What the shooter believed is immaterial–both here and your Islam example. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/114 "2009-04-05T23:09:19Z")
Religion is an idea; a figment; and an idea and figment that has caused millions of people over time to be massacred in the name of one god or another. Religion, as a force, is infinitely more powerful than even the most advanced firearm. And religions, believe it or not, exert a far greater force upon people all over the world than the NRA does. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/115 "2009-04-05T23:09:27Z")
> [@SuntanTigerTamer](#): > > Religion is selling God. An idea. A figment. Yeah, nobody ever get killed because of God. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/116 "2009-04-05T23:15:03Z")
The OP also never addressed the point that I brought up, which was that his own username is a reference to a massacre of _striking workers_ by the POLICE; and I don’t see any sentiment in his posts that he would also like the police to go unarmed. In fact, six policemen were shot to death in the Haymarket riot - BY OTHER POLICEMEN, accidentally. You think cops are the only people who are qualified to carry guns? Read up on all the instances of police brutality over the years; of some or other innocent man being shot to death by incompetent cops; and then get back to me with your proposal of disarming the civilian population (but not the police.) ETA - or is it also the NRA’s fault when cops shoot an innocent person to death? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/117 "2009-04-05T23:19:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The OP also never addressed the point that I brought up, which was that his own username is a reference to a massacre of _striking workers_ by the POLICE; and I don’t see any sentiment in his posts that he would also like the police to go unarmed. In fact, six policemen were shot to death in the Haymarket riot - BY OTHER POLICEMEN, accidentally. You think cops are the only people who are qualified to carry guns? Read up on all the instances of police brutality over the years; of some or other innocent man being shot to death by incompetent cops; and then get back to me with your proposal of disarming the civilian population (but not the police.) > > ETA - or is it also the NRA’s fault when cops shoot an innocent person to death? I could have _sworn_ the goalposts were right here a minute ago! ---
**Author:** ![SuntanTigerTamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@SuntanTigerTamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanTigerTamer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/118 "2009-04-05T23:22:47Z")
Jesus fucking christ people. One is a tangible object built for one purpose. The other is an idea. So, you’re saying then, that it is actually just as dangerous to tell you kids about Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount as it is to hand them a loaded .44? Answer the questions and stop pussyfooting. Again. The blame lies with the shooter, first, and then the NRA and anyone who gave the fucks a dime. That money went to lobbyists who then fought tooth and nail to relax or erase gun-control and ease of access laws. What in that last sentence did I say that is factually incorrect? I am pro-choice. I vote pro-choice. I give money to pro-choice causes. This means that I have the blood of every aborted child on my hands. I can rationalize that because I do not believe life begins at conception. How do you rationalize what you’re doing? ---
**Author:** ![SuntanTigerTamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@SuntanTigerTamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanTigerTamer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/119 "2009-04-05T23:23:47Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I could have _sworn_ the goalposts were right here a minute ago! I see what he did there… ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005/120 "2009-04-05T23:25:58Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > it is the NRA’s stance of opposing firearm regulations that begets their blameworthiness. What regulation would have prevented this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/price-for-gun-rights-is-paid-in-pa/492005.md?page=7)