# Pride goes before the fall (and some of you sure are prideful) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142 "2000-01-03T00:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GodlyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@GodlyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/1 "2000-01-03T00:31:00Z")
By the grace given me I say to everyone of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. –Romans 12:3 Pride does go before a fall! It is not easy to balance the two truths: “I must not be prideful, but I must understand just how much God values me”. Satan can use our self- denigration, the worthless worm syndrome, to discourage us and keep us from using our gifts for Kingdom work. On the other hand, pride takes God out of the picture and attributes our contribution to God’s Kingdom to us and not to God. Holy Father, as your child, redeemed at the cost of Jesus’ life, I know I am loved and valuable to you. I know you have given me abilities and gifts to use for your glory and to bless your church. But Father, I do not want to ever think that my abilities are somehow mine alone. I know you have given me the gifts, abilities, and experiences that have shaped me, so please empower me to your glory. But Father, I never want the glory that is achieved from your gifts to puff me up or turn from me the realization that I am what I am, I have what I have, and I do what I do, because of your grace and your generous gifts. May I ever be your humble but valuable child at work in your Kingdom. Through Jesus I pray. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/2 "2000-01-03T01:00:00Z")
I am awe-struck by your ostentatious display of humility. You truly are an example to us all. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/3 "2000-01-03T01:33:00Z")
Oh now **TomH**. If it makes **GodlyGuy** happy to come into this forum and preach, the polite thing to do is to listen politely. We did designate this as the appropriate venue for Witnessing, so we should be happy that someone has chosen to take advantage of the opportunity. ## I, for one, will try to avoid interrupting the sermons from now on. Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University “You cannot reason a man out of a position he did not reach through reason.” ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/4 "2000-01-03T01:34:00Z")
Ain’t nobody more humble than me. ---
**Author:** ![WallyM7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5e925/32.png) [@WallyM7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WallyM7)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/5 "2000-01-03T01:48:00Z")
Can’t be Coop. GodlyGuy is the most humble. Although I must confess his screen name is a tad boastful. * * * A seminar on time travel will be held two weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![Nishi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ad7895/32.png) [@Nishi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nishi)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/6 "2000-01-03T02:14:00Z")
Guys- Try to be kind here-GodlyGuy is younger than you would believe. Please be gentle. * * * Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you Matthew 5:11-12 ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/7 "2000-01-03T02:18:00Z")
That I eat a big bag of cow manure - live on camera - the day that Jesus returns … that offer still stands! ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/8 "2000-01-03T02:32:00Z")
GodlyGuy, welcome to the SDMB! I would like to pass on a word of advice - unless you have what are definitely different topics you wish to debate, it is preferable to start only one topic, and debate on that thread. Otherwise the board gets terribly cluttered, and conversations and lines of thought become hard to follow. It’s also considered good form to include some sort of question in your post - after all, this forum exists for the purpose of debate, so we need something to debate about! Even if the question is just ‘What do you think about that?’ Enjoy your visit - and please try to develop a thick skin. It’s easy to get your feelings hurt around here. Don’t take it too seriously. (Um, Nishi, just how young is GodlyGuy? Might want to steer him/her clear of the BBQ Pit.) * * * Carpe diem - Seize the day Carpe noctem - Seize the night Carpe cerevisi - Seize the beer ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/9 "2000-01-03T03:27:00Z")
Matthew 7:11 > [@](#): > > “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” Matthew 7:15-16 > [@](#): > > 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. > > 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Matthew 7:22-23 > [@](#): > > 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ > > 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ * * * TT “Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it.” --Andre Gide ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/10 "2000-01-03T03:37:00Z")
Joshua 10:40 > [@](#): > > So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. Yep, that’s your merciful, loving God for ya. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/11 "2000-01-03T11:58:00Z")
I’ve generally stayed away from these arguments that cite scripture to demonstrate that Jehovah was heartless and cruel. I stayed out of it mainly because I thought it was a trivial sentiment that atheists were using as a gentle friendly mockery, and so it didn’t seem appropriate to pounce on them, but it is becoming increasingly clear that there is a certain sincerity about it. There is also the matter that there is so much wrong with it that I hardly know where to start. But start I will, and I’ll at least avoid the technical terms in favor of more popular terms in the hopes that your eyes won’t glaze over. For one thing, it is the type of fallacy known as affirming the consequent. Typically, that happens whenever we ignore the context of the evidence we cite. And if we supply an arbitrary context, as you did by implication, then we run the risk of invoking a false dilemma (or false dichotomy). In addition, there are at least two types of motive fallacies: appeal to pity and prejudicial language. And the inductive fallacies are like a downpour: there is a hasty generalization, an unrepresentative sample, a slothful induction, and a fallacy of exclusion. The context you have selected is one of a warrior god who has omnipotent power to kill, but no interest in any eternal life. You supply a context of Hitler, Stalin, or Khan. A likelier context is the one supplied by Jesus of a God Who, upon reclaiming the souls that He created, might give them ineffable reward for their suffering. You tag a temporal god, when God is eternal. Your protest in the context of mortality is understandable, but in the context of immortality is irrelevant. Yes, if this biological existence is all there is, then the snuffing out of life is heinous. Stalin and Hitler killed people to be rid of them. In other words, by their deeds, the people would disappear. But the context for God is radically different. When people’s bodies have fallen away, He is still faced with their spirits. You are citing usurpations like those of men with no authority over life and death, when instead these are the workings of a Being for Whom the entire fifteen billion years of physical existence, let alone the few years of a human lifetime, are but a blip on the eternal radar. The arguments you put forth that Jehovah was evil because of certain deeds, taken in a context that you arbitrarily assign, are no different in essence from the arguments of children that their parents are cruel for deeds, the context of which, the children have practically no understanding. * * * “It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler ---
**Author:** ![fuzzy-wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@fuzzy-wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzy-wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/12 "2000-01-03T15:05:00Z")
Wanna put that in layman’s terms Lib? * * * “Do or do not, there is no try” - Yoda ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/13 "2000-01-03T15:06:00Z")
Sorry,godlyguy,names do not make the poster. Our Satan is humble and beloved. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/14 "2000-01-03T15:13:00Z")
RTA said: > [@](#): > > That I eat a big bag of cow manure - live on camera - the day that Jesus returns … that offer still stands! Yeah, but why should those who are “saved” care? They’ll all be gone then anyway. And I don’t know if they’ll get cable in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/15 "2000-01-03T15:16:00Z")
Libertarian said > [@](#): > > A likelier context is the one supplied by Jesus of a God Who, upon reclaiming the souls that He created, might give them ineffable reward for their suffering. You tag a temporal god, when God is eternal. Your protest in the context of mortality is understandable, but in the context of immortality is irrelevant. fuzzy-wuzzy then asked > [@](#): > > Wanna put that in layman’s terms Lib? “Kill them all and let God sort them out” seems to fit the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/16 "2000-01-03T15:17:00Z")
fuzzy-wuzzy > [@](#): > > Wanna put that in layman’s terms Lib? That’s exactly what I did. * * * “It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/17 "2000-01-03T15:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > what does the LORD require of you > but to do justice, and to love kindness, > and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8) What is humility? I’ve come up with this: it’s an acknowledgement that we are not in a position to look down on anyone. There is enough sin in each of us that Christ would have had to die for me, or you, or the other guy, alone - even if everybody else was sin-free. We all like to find people to look down on. I’m hardly free from that, myself. But that’s still quite a thread title to throw at anyone, and quite a name to live up to, GG. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/18 "2000-01-03T15:26:00Z")
RTF said: > [@](#): > > I’ve come up with this: it’s an acknowledgement that we are not in a position to look down on anyone. Pah! Anybody who would say that is obviously inferior! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/19 "2000-01-03T15:27:00Z")
nebuli > [@](#): > > “Kill them all and let God sort them out” seems to fit the bill. That is an amphiboly. * * * “It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142/20 "2000-01-03T17:45:00Z")
## I kindly refer all to this link. [http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000500.html](http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000500.html) Coldfire * * * “You know how complex women are” - Neil Peart, Rush (1993) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pride-goes-before-the-fall-and-some-of-you-sure-are-prideful/17142.md?page=2)