# Priest-Penitent Privilege? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091 "2017-08-19T15:03:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/21 "2017-08-21T09:15:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Canon 960 of the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law provides that individual and integral confession and absolution are the necessary elements of the sacrament, along with (per 966) the priest hearing the confession possessing the faculty, under law, to exercise that power in respect of the faithful to whom he gives absolution. So performing the penance is a part of the process, but not a requirement for the reception of the sacrament. That isn’t “law” in the legal sense though is it? Those are just the internal rules of the organisation. No more binding than the “laws” of cricket. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/22 "2017-08-21T09:40:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Confession to a religious figure should be no more and no less protected than confession to any other person. If a parent learned of serious crime committed by their children then I’d place exactly the same responsibilities on them as well. People need to unburden themselves and may well in future refrain if they believe the confessor will gab out the fact the whole family plays mixed doctors and nurses every night. > [@Bricker](#): > > Nor do I claim that they are – simply that in the U.S., at the present moment in time, the constitution does grant religion such a special place. That’s a fact. > > Obviously, changing the constitution if possible, and could eliminate that. > > But in terms of realistic future outcomes, I rate such a change as extraordinarily unlikely. I don’t. The U.S. Constitution has been changed any number of times from the original, and I could well see the liberals — not the left, but the hysterics — deciding to void all protection for religion. Not that it would make any difference to the Roman Catholic Church what Americans think. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/23 "2017-08-21T09:42:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That isn’t “law” in the legal sense though is it? Those are just the internal rules of the organisation. No more binding than the “laws” of cricket. How are laws an organization lives by any less laws than those imposed by the state ? And with both it is entirely up to the individual which to obey. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/24 "2017-08-21T11:51:49Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > How are laws an organization lives by any less laws than those imposed by the state ? I don’t recall anyone being jailed because they went against canon “law”, nor being put on probation because you don’t bowl with a straight arm. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/25 "2017-08-21T11:53:26Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > People need to unburden themselves and may well in future refrain if they believe the confessor will gab out the fact the whole family plays mixed doctors and nurses every night. OK, why should a priest have special privilege not to disclose such things when other people that may help you unburden, do not? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/26 "2017-08-21T13:50:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That isn’t “law” in the legal sense though is it? Those are just the internal rules of the organisation. No more binding than the “laws” of cricket. In a sense, yes. But the explanation was responsively relevant to the statement, “Part of a valid sacrament of Confession is performing the penance that the priest gives to you.” In other words, the Catholic Church determines what it considers a “valid sacrament,” in the same sense that the various cricket rules organizations have determined that six runs are scored in cricket if the ball crosses the perimeter without bouncing. Neither rests on an action by Congress or a state legislature; both are binding on their own membership. The difference here is that “law in the legal sense,” _recognizes and applies_ aspects of the Catholic law in secular contexts. The “law in the legal sense” doesn’t care about penance either, and is broader than the Catholic application. A Catholic confession and absolution cannot be conferred on an unbaptized person, but the secular law draws no such distinction; a Jewish person seeking advice from his rabbi can claim the legal protections of the privilege even though there is no analogous _halakhic_ principle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/27 "2017-08-21T13:55:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > OK, why should a priest have special privilege not to disclose such things when other people that may help you unburden, do not? Because we as a society regard religion as deserving of special status and protection. Again, in this sense, “priest” does not mean “ordained minister in Christian Holy Orders,” but more generally refers to a person whose religious role is spiritual or religious counsel. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/28 "2017-08-21T14:36:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because we as a society regard religion as deserving of special status and protection. Unfortunately so, I don’t think that should be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/29 "2017-08-21T14:51:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t recall anyone being jailed because they went against canon “law”, nor being put on probation because you don’t bowl with a straight arm. You never had a chat with the Holy Office c. 1700, did you ? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > OK, why should a priest have special privilege not to disclose such things when other people that may help you unburden, do not? Because this is a formalized system, and people aren’t going to use it if they are going to be snitched upon. I do not admire Confession, and until the present Pope excommunicated the Italian/Sicilian Mafias a few years ago — as his feebler predecessors had not — it did not seem to stop the wretched brutes from continuing bad things. And I don’t know that any of this is much of a privilege: I’ve read of priests being sick and bothered at the relentless catalogue of ( petty ) crime from our ordinary fellows. Back in pre-internet days I would hazard a guess some people got a kick out of confessing utterly banal and revolting details of their sex-lives to a celibate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/30 "2017-08-21T15:54:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Unfortunately so, I don’t think that should be the case. Sure. Indeed, you can make the case that by privileging religion over more secular modes of counsel and guidance, we as a society are actually making a choice: we’re not establishing a particular religion, but we’re establishing a preference for religion (of whatever stripe) over non-religion. But unfortunately for holders of this view, it’s so entrenched that changing it in any substantial way won’t happen any time soon, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/31 "2017-08-21T17:35:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Unfortunately so, I don’t think that should be the case. It strengthens the country. Every truly religious person is going to obey their religion and not the state if they are in conflict. So by trying to minimize the conflict between the obligations of religion and the state, the government has more people who are loyal to it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/32 "2017-08-23T17:11:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know of any cases that fit your description. > > There was a case in Louisiana that involved a 14 year old girl who apparently alleged in confession that a lay member of the parish had sexually abused her. Her family subsequently sued the priest for failure to report the allegation. > > However, the appellate courts ultimately ruled that while the child was free to testify about what she said, the priest could not be compelled to testify, unless the information was received outside the seal of confession. That seems a little off. Like it should have been a hearsay issue, instead. At least wrt the priest’s putative testimony. I’m also unclear on the Church’s stance on whether the seal of the confessional should prevent a victim’s allegation from triggering mandatory reporting. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/33 "2017-08-24T01:34:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That seems a little off. Like it should have been a hearsay issue, instead. At least wrt the priest’s putative testimony. In that context, the priest’s testimony would not be hearsay as it is not offered “for the truth of the matter asserted.” IOW, it matters not whether the 14 year old’s allegation of abuse was true (in the context of that case) but what the priest did by failing/not failing to report it. [QUOTE=Fed R. of Evid. 801] (c) Hearsay. “Hearsay” means a statement that: (1) the declarant does not make while testifying at the current trial or hearing; and (2) a party offers in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/34 "2017-08-24T02:43:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That seems a little off. Like it should have been a hearsay issue, instead. At least wrt the priest’s putative testimony. Not hearsay. I know that this can be a complicated concept, but here’s part of a post I wrote some time back that might be helpful: > [@Hearsay Evidence?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearsay-evidence/157042/7): > > The OP mentions the classic statement that hearsay is inadmissible. That’s generally true, although as we’ve read above, there are many exceptions to the general rule. > > But an out of court statement is perfectly admissible if it’s NOT offered to show the truth of the matter asserted in the statement. That’s not an exception to the hearsay rule – it’s simply not hearsay. > > Bill wishes to testify that Abe told him, “Charlie robbed a 7-11 last night and shot the clerk dead when she gave him trouble.” What’s the purpose of this evidence? If it’s to show that Charlie participated in robbing a 7-11 and committing murder, then it’s hearsay - it’s offered to prove the truth of the statement itself. > > But suppose I offer this evidence at _Bill_’s trial - I want to show that he heard that Charlie robbed the store and shot the clerk, and, because the clerk was his sister, flew into a rage and beat Charlie to within an inch of his life. Now the statement isn’t offered to prove whether or not the store was actually robbed by Charlie - it’s offered to show why Bill flew into a rage. It’s no longer hearsay. We don’t care if the statement itself is true or not – just that it was said. > [@](#): > > I’m also unclear on the Church’s stance on whether the seal of the confessional should prevent a victim’s allegation from triggering mandatory reporting. The Church’s stance is consistent with secular law: it does. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/35 "2017-08-24T07:21:32Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > People need to unburden themselves and may well in future refrain if they believe the confessor will gab out the fact the whole family plays mixed doctors and nurses every night. And we have no particular reason to want to give criminals the opportunity to “unburden themselves” risk-free. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/36 "2017-08-24T07:43:33Z")
It’s not really up to ‘us’. And most ordinary people aren’t _ipso facto_ criminals — whose crimes against the state are simply so far undiscovered — outside the great People’s Republic regimes. Neither outside such idyllically idealist republics is the profession of secret informer honoured and admired. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/37 "2017-08-24T10:00:02Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And we have no particular reason to want to give criminals the opportunity to “unburden themselves” risk-free. Speak for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/38 "2017-08-24T11:17:27Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Neither outside such idyllically idealist republics is the profession of secret informer honoured and admired. A person finds out about horrific, ongoing child abuse. That person reports it to the police. Is that person to be commended or admired? That person does not report it to the police. Is that person to be commended or admired? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/39 "2017-08-24T13:00:38Z")
If I discovered a paedophile ring I would openly, not secretly, tell the police. Same with a dog-fighting ring. But these would have to be ongoing and future. Anything previous is not my concern. Similarly with murdering: a few hours ago I discovered the case of the **[Green River Killer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Ridgway)**, a man who may have killed over 90 women and brutalized the bodies. To suggest one should not help capture such as he would be absurd. Then again I would not grant him my confidence, let alone my absolution; so it’s rather moot. This is not a perfect world. Anything that comes under the label of utmost shame — not presently hurting others physically or emotionally — that should embarrass the perp for eternity will not be revealed by me, particularly if revealed in confidence; like embezzlement, bestiality, being republican, bed-wetting or having shot a man in Reno in the past. This is not my business, and unlike the Catholic Church I have no interest in saving the souls of the damned. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091/40 "2017-08-24T14:12:45Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > This is not a perfect world. Indeed not, I’m pretty much in line with where you would draw the boundary as I think it is where any reasonable person would draw it. My main problem has always been, and remains, any suggestion that priests or other religious figures get some special allowance to keep quiet in all circumstances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/priest-penitent-privilege/794091.md?page=3)