# Prime Minister Boris Johnson tries to lead the UK but has resigned on July 7, 2022 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872 "2019-07-30T14:24:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/342 "2019-09-12T21:35:54Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > \ Thanks UDS, your contributions in the various Brexit threads have been, and continue to be, invaluable to this somewhat bemused and befuddled poster. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/343 "2019-09-12T22:39:57Z")
Aye; add me to that compliment, please. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/344 "2019-09-12T22:43:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Aye; add me to that compliment, please. I concur. **UDS** - other than racism and xenophilia, why _do_ so many British people want to Brexit? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/345 "2019-09-13T01:30:40Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Thanks UDS, your contributions in the various Brexit threads have been, and continue to be, invaluable to this somewhat bemused and befuddled poster. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Aye; add me to that compliment, please. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I concur. I blush becomingly. Thanks, guys. > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > **UDS** - other than racism and xenophilia, why _do_ so many British people want to Brexit? In my view, a few factors. In no particular order: Austerity: Since 2008, the UK has been a fairly depressing place for a lot of people. Not miserable; just persistently glum, real wages stagnating, low-grade employment abounding, growing inequality, public services contracting and deteriorating sense that things are getting better or are going to be. People want a change, and this looks like a change. Rebellious gesture: Also, people want to express dissatisfaction, and this looks like an opportunity to express dissatisfaction by kicking the political and cultural establishment in the nuts. This factor probably explains why people don’t feel the need to examine too closely whether the change effected by Brexit is the kind of change that is going to address the factors that make their world joyless. (Hint: it isn’t.) Nostalgia: Much Brexiter rhetoric is incredibly nostalgic, looking back to times when, they like to think, the UK was a much more signficant, and a much more confident, country than it is today. People would like to recapture some of that. Widespread profound ignorance about what the EU is, what it does, why it does it and how it does it: Although the UK has been a member for going on 50 years now, popular culture and awareness has never really engaged with the reality of their participation in the Union, and perceptions of the EU are driven by a long-standing, deeply entrenched and frankly mendacious pejorative caricature of the EU in the popular media. This has had the effect not just of fostering antipathy to the EU but, rather seriously in the present context, giving people a wholly misleading idea of what leaving the EU will entail, and what it is or is not possible to acheive by leaving the EU. It has often been noted that the UK decided to Brexit without any clear consensus on the reasons for doing so or the objects sought to be achieved by doing so, and that the disastrous progress of the project since that decision was taken is largely attributable to the fact that they sill haven’t developed any kind of consensus about this. And the reason for _this_ is that developing a pragmatic Brexit plan requires engagement with the reality of the EU and the UK’s relationship to in it, and doing _that_ requires letting go of the illusions and delusions they currently have about that, and it is psychologically very difficult to let go of illusions and delusions that you have already acted on, to your great cost and detriment. To be blunt, once you’ve sacrificed your children to Moloch, it’s a very hard to admit to yourself that the whole Moloch thing is bogus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/346 "2019-09-13T03:55:48Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I blush becomingly. Thanks, guys. > In my view, a few factors. In no particular order: > > Austerity: Since 2008, the UK has been a fairly depressing place for a lot of people. Not miserable; just persistently glum, real wages stagnating, low-grade employment abounding, growing inequality, public services contracting and deteriorating sense that things are getting better or are going to be. People want a change, and this looks like a change. > > Rebellious gesture: Also, people want to express dissatisfaction, and this looks like an opportunity to express dissatisfaction by kicking the political and cultural establishment in the nuts. This factor probably explains why people don’t feel the need to examine too closely whether the change effected by Brexit is the kind of change that is going to address the factors that make their world joyless. (Hint: it isn’t.) > > Nostalgia: Much Brexiter rhetoric is incredibly nostalgic, looking back to times when, they like to think, the UK was a much more signficant, and a much more confident, country than it is today. People would like to recapture some of that. > > Widespread profound ignorance … > … Hmm, in other words, why America elected trump. Makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/347 "2019-09-13T08:41:55Z")
I’d like to dissent a little from this. > [@UDS](#): > > Austerity: Since 2008, the UK has been a fairly depressing place for a lot of people. > > Rebellious gesture: Also, people want to express dissatisfaction > > Nostalgia: Much Brexiter rhetoric is incredibly nostalgic I live in Bristol (Bristol West voted 80-20 to remain) and I almost never encounter leavers in my neighbourhood but most of my family live in the Kent countryside which is very strongly pro-leave. If you’d asked me a little while ago, why leavers want to leave, I would’ve said “Austerity. Rebellious gesture. Nostalgia” exactly as UDS has, but my Leaver relatives all fiercely deny that any of those had any impact on their thinking at all. Now, maybe it’s false consciousness or maybe they are lying and maybe those really are the true reasons why they voted leave. But it’s not useful to think that. It’s a rhetorical own goal. However, this… > [@UDS](#): > > Widespread profound ignorance …is dead right. My family believe every conspiracy theory about how the EU is undemocratic and they are out to screw us over and we don’t get anything for our contributions and it’s all a secret plot by the Germans to achieve through soft power what they failed to achieve in two world wars. It’s really hard to even talk to them about it because we have no common understanding of the facts. It’s like they have been living in an alternative timeline which, in many ways, they have. Have a look, for example, at yesterday’s headlines. The Times — PM Blocks Key Memos on Shutting Parliament i — Queen Dragged into Unlawful Shutdown of Commons. Daily Mirror — Boris Lied to the Queen The Guardian — No Deal Chaos as Secret Brexit Papers Published Independent — Johnson Acted Illegally in Proroguing Parliament. Metro — Another Fine Mess (Johnson broke the law) Daily Mail: Megan Back at Work! The Sun: Meghan Markle launches high street clothing line in first public engagement since baby Archie’s birth Telegraph — Tories offered Olive Branch Daily Express: Boris: I Won’t Deal With Farage Worst constitutional crisis since 1936 and they didn’t think to put it on their front pages. This has been going on for the last 30 years. My family believe that there is an overwhelming majority in the UK that supports leaving and the only reason we haven’t left yet is the conspiracy between the fifth column traitors in Parliament and the dictators in Brussels because that’s what their newspapers tell them every day. > [@Billy Bragg](#): > > If this does not reflect your view you should understand > That those who own the papers also own this land > And they’d rather you believed > In Coronation Street capers > In the war of circulation, it sells newspapers > Could it be an infringement > Of the freedom of the press > To print pictures of women in states of undress > When you wake up to the fact > That your paper is Tory > Just remember, there are two sides to every story ---
**Author:** ![its\_the\_daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bb73d2/32.png) [@its\_the\_daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/its_the_daddy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/348 "2019-09-13T10:56:57Z")
For a proper newspaper, follow The New European. Or, better still, take out a subscription. It’s not all remain propaganda (although that’s there). It has lots of European news, comment, history, arts and literature. And not just Brexit. And good (if campaigning) journalism from a surprising bevy of star names. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/349 "2019-09-13T12:09:01Z")
I woke to find this headline from the AP: [Boris Johnson to hold Brexit talks with Juncker](https://apnews.com/a6d7bc76a6044022a6a65fc5980e93b5). > [@](#): > > Officials say British Prime Minister Boris Johnson will hold Brexit talks with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker in Luxembourg. > > The British government and the European Commission have confirmed the meeting, which will take place on Monday at lunchtime. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/350 "2019-09-14T10:32:32Z")
And this morning, [David Cameron says he’s sorry](https://apnews.com/6ec7fb1c150f4958944c6f7e37be1457): > [@](#): > > David Cameron said in an interview published Saturday that he thinks about the consequences of the Brexit referendum “every single day” and worries “desperately” about what will happen next. > > “I deeply regret the outcome and accept that my approach failed,” he said. “The decisions I took contributed to that failure. I failed.” > > He admitted that many people blame him for the Brexit divisions that have deepened since the referendum and will never forgive him, but he defended his decision to call the vote. > > He spoke to The Times newspaper to promote his soon-to-be-published memoir. Ah; there it is: he’s shilling for shillings. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/351 "2019-09-14T23:39:02Z")
If you have yet to figure out that we live in a world that is deeply, deeply unjust, this should fix that for you: [Tories extend poll lead despite weeks of political chaos](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/14/tories-extend-poll-lead-to-12-despite-week-of-political-chaos) ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/352 "2019-09-15T03:54:17Z")
> [@glee](#): > > - President Putin ☹ Come to think of it, why hasn’t Russia joined the EU? ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/353 "2019-09-15T03:58:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Obviously not. But it does mean that we avoid the immediate catastrophe, and that seems slightly more pressing than pissing off a bunch of (and let’s be perfectly honest here) _impressively thick and/or racist people._ I don’t know if “racist,” by the definition currently accepted, strictly applies – the leavers seem to have just as big a problem with Polish immigrants as nonwhites. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/354 "2019-09-15T04:06:20Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Actually, there’s a relatively easy reconciliation: The rule of law means that the government must comply with the law; in this context, this means that it must comply with the law of England and Wales _and_ the law of Scotland _and_ the law of Northern Ireland; as a matter of Scottish law, the reasons for prorogation are justiciable; as a matter of Scottish law, the reasons iin this case are improper. If the government’s conduct doesn’t pass muster under Scottish law then it makes no difference at all whether it passes muster under E&W or NI law. Exactly the same reasoning would apply if the Scottish courts had taken the view that the question was not justiciable and the E&W courts that it was. > > What this means is that the biggest questions at the Supreme Court hearing next week will be (a) is the issue justiciable as a matter of Scottish law? and (b) were the reasons given proper as a matter of Scottish law? It is irrelevant to question (a) whether the issues is justiciable under the law of any other part of the kingom, and it is irrelevant to question (b) whether the reasons given, if they were justiciable, are or would be considered proper under the law of any other part of the kingdom. > > In other words, in the events which have happened, the Scots law case is the big one. > > The case will be heard by a panel of 9 judges, two of whom are Scottish judges (as in; members of the Scottish bar; practised Scottish law in the Scottish courts; were appointed to the Scottish bench and were judges in the Scottish courts before being appointed to the Supreme Court). I believe the convention in the Supreme Court is that when questions of Scottish law arise, the non-Scottish judges on the panel will normally defer to their Scottish colleagues (and correspondingly for questions of NI law and E&W law). So the opinions of these two judges may be decisive. Let’s hope they don’t disagree. 🙂 I **love** lawyers! 😃 After all, isn’t the Common Law the most valuable thing Britain has given to the world? ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/355 "2019-09-15T04:08:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And the UK pretty much collapses. You mean, Scotland and NI secede? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/356 "2019-09-15T14:25:36Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > I **love** lawyers! 😃 > > After all, isn’t the Common Law the most valuable thing Britain has given to the world? The common law is English, not British. Scots law has not been nearly as influential. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/357 "2019-09-15T17:35:44Z")
I wonder if the judges will take this subtle, well-reasoned jurisprudential approach: [https://me.me/i/if-its-not-scottish-its-crap-9931274b4db54c6e884064828d410cad](https://me.me/i/if-its-not-scottish-its-crap-9931274b4db54c6e884064828d410cad) ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/358 "2019-09-15T19:31:34Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The common law is English, not British. Scots law has not been nearly as influential. Neither is it drastically different, AFAIK. The only anomaly that comes to mind is the criminal-law third-option “Scots verdict” of “Not proven” – which has been translated as “Not guilty and don’t do it again.” It has the same legal effect as “Not guilty,” however; it just gives the jury the option to say he probably dunnit but there isn’t enough evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/359 "2019-09-15T19:43:32Z")
There’s way more difference than that. That bastard verdict is just what has made it into the general consciousness. Scots law has strong roots in the civil law, via Dutch law. It’s been influenced by the common law, but they are different systems. That’s one of the reasons the U.K. Supreme Court does not have jurisdiction to hear criminal appeals from Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/360 "2019-09-15T19:57:03Z")
Another example of the difference is that the legal vocabulary of Scots law has influenced the English terms used in Quebec civil law. In 1866, the drafters of the Quebec Civil Code, which was bilingual, wanted to avoid using common law terminology to avoid importing the common law inadvertently into the civil law. So instead they relied on vocabulary from Scots law for the English version of the Code, since those Scots terms were based in the civil law as well ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/361 "2019-09-15T23:40:11Z")
> **[No-deal Brexit would be a 'catastrophe' for travelers, experts warn | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/no-deal-brexit-travel-yellowhammer/index.html)** > > If the United Kingdom leaves the European Union with a no-deal Brexit, travelers to the UK will potentially face huge queues as well as food shortages and civil unrest, according to warnings from experts and the document Operation Yellowhammer. _What’s more, an industry expert has told CNN that in terms of travel, Yellowhammer looks “surprisingly optimistic” – and that in the event of a no-deal, people could be waiting in border queues between the UK and the EU for days on end…ellowhammer predicts “significant disruption lasting up to six months” for Channel crossings affecting food and medical supplies. “Certain types of fresh food supply will decrease,” it warns. Veterinary supplies may be interrupted, threatening outbreaks of disease among livestock, which could also affect the food chain. Fuel supplies in London and southeast England would be disrupted, and could domino into shortages across the country. It also warns of a “rise in public disorder,” “protests and counter-protests,” and road blockages._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=19)