# Prime Minister Boris Johnson tries to lead the UK but has resigned on July 7, 2022 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872 "2019-07-30T14:24:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/362 "2019-09-15T23:52:26Z")
[He wants us to call him Hulk now?](https://apnews.com/f0b281b1c8484607a797b1139cce8ed5) > [@](#): > > British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has compared himself to the Hulk in a newspaper interview emphasizing his determination to take Britain out of the European Union next month. > > Johnson faces considerable legal and political hurdles but told the Mail on Sunday he will meet the Oct. 31 deadline no matter what. > > “The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets,” he told the widely read tabloid, invoking the comic book and film character known for formidable but destructive strength. > [@](#): > > He will have a lunchtime meeting in Luxembourg on Monday with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to try to modify the Irish backstop that has been a main sticking point, but EU leaders did not seem impressed by Johnson’s invocation of the Hulk. > [@](#): > > The European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, said the comments showed a lack of maturity. > > “Even to Trumpian standards the Hulk comparison is infantile,” he tweeted. “Is the EU supposed to be scared by this? The British public impressed?” Meanwhile, David Cameron continues to speak out on his book tour: > [@](#): > > Cameron said in an interview published Sunday that Johnson didn’t really believe in Brexit when he broke ranks and led the campaign to take Britain out of the EU. Cameron had been expecting Johnson’s help during the hard-fought campaign. > > Cameron says of Johnson: “The conclusion I am left with is that he risked an outcome he didn’t believe in because it would help his political career.” \ :eek: Say it isn’t so! ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/363 "2019-09-16T02:07:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [He wants us to call him Hulk now?](https://apnews.com/f0b281b1c8484607a797b1139cce8ed5) When the Hulk gets madder, the Hulk gets stronger – but he does not get any smarter. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/364 "2019-09-16T02:19:17Z")
Assume a no deal Brexit with fairly immediate negative consequences experienced by many. So much so that many Brexit supporters regret the decision. What would be the possibility and if possible method of a new referendum to rejoin and undo Brexit? Would it be impossible to rewind? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/365 "2019-09-16T02:59:32Z")
> [@](#): > > “The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets,” he told the widely read tabloid, invoking the comic book and film character known for formidable but destructive strength. “Madness is Strength” - \*2019 \* ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/366 "2019-09-16T04:06:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Assume a no deal Brexit with fairly immediate negative consequences experienced by many. So much so that many Brexit supporters regret the decision. > > What would be the possibility and if possible method of a new referendum to rejoin and undo Brexit? Would it be impossible to rewind? There is a pathway to entry for aspirant member states. In principle there is nothing to stop a _former_ member state from following that pathway, though it has never arisen in practice. However: 1. Currently the UK has a number of “grandfathered” rights and privileges - a budget rebate, no obligation to adopt the euro as their currency, opt-outs from various other measures - when end when it leaves the EU, and which aren’t on offer to aspirant new members. 2. Of course this is a political matter; the member states could agree to offer favourable re-entry terms to the UK if they wanted to smooth its way back in. But they’d have to agree that _unanimously_. And before agreeing they’d have to consider the political impolications for existing member states which weren’t offered such favours on their entry and don’t enjoy them now, and of course the political implications for other aspirant member states. 3. In short, there are considerations which lean against offering the UK a sweet re-entry deal. The EU would have to really, really want the UK to rejoin before they would do this. 4. Which raises the question, would they want to the UK to rejoin? On the one hand for the UK to rejoin would be a triumphant vindication of the benefits of EU membership and an Awful Example of the horrors of leaving. 5. On the other hand, for many years now the UK as a member state absorbed an undue amount of political time, attention and capital - the constant whinging, the throwing of toys out of the pram, the table-thumping, the demands for rebates and concessions and exceptions, the gutless leaders who gamble with referenda about EU membership in order to avoid facing party divisions. 6. And since the 2016 referndum it has been worse: the UK has looked to the EU like a failing state, one whose institutions cannot resolve or even manage its own internal political divisions, to the extent those divisions are causing serious disruption to the UK’s neighbours. They might prefer the UK to stabilise itself a bit and address some of the issues that have brought it to this pass before they welcome it back into the fold. 7. So I think the UK’s readmission would be depdendent on a changed political consensus within the UK - one in which the UK political establishment is actually enthusiastic about the European project, and in which instead of trying to accommodate anti-European sentiment (e.g. by holding idiotic refererenda) they marginalise it (e.g. by slinging europhopes out of the major parties, and leaving them to the likes of Farage). As noted, acceptance of the euro and of the Schengen agreement are already standard conditions of entry. If the UK’s application for re-entry were to be accompanied by demands for immediate concessions and dispensations from the rules which apply to everyone else, well, that could send send signals about the UK’s attitude to the project which would make rejection of the application a racing certainty. 8. I think a more likely route to re-entry would be, well, why not enter into an association agreement with the EU as other aspirant member states do, and join the EEA as Norway, Iceland, etc have done. Demonstrate responsible, mature behaviour and a settled commitment to joining the EU for 10 years or so, and then let’s talk. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/367 "2019-09-16T06:18:16Z")
> [@](#): > > The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets,” he told the widely read tabloid, invoking the comic book and film character known for formidable but destructive strength. Doesn’t he also get dumber? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/368 "2019-09-16T06:38:34Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Doesn’t he also get dumber? “Ignorance is Strength” - George Orwell in _1984_, Brexiteers in 2019. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/369 "2019-09-16T08:19:02Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > 1. I think a more likely route to re-entry would be, well, why not enter into an association agreement with the EU as other aspirant member states do, and join the EEA as Norway, Iceland, etc have done. Demonstrate responsible, mature behaviour and a settled commitment to joining the EU for 10 years or so, and then let’s talk. The UK would need to be on the brink of an Argentina before they’d be allowed to rejoin the EFTA. The Norwegian political establishment had a cross-party panic at the though when it was first advanced. the phrase “national interest” showed up, and it rarely does in consensus-oriented Norway. They’ve mellowed somewhat since, and one was heard to say off the record “Its not been long enough since the war (WW2) to bar them if the dumb …s are really on the brink”. So its considered a highly undesirable outcome by Norway. Now, the EFTA\_EU agreement was originally made when the two blocks were more equal in size and economies. So if the UK wanted to rejoin the EEA not as Norway, Iceland etc have by through a separate deal, they would have a lot less bargaining power. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/370 "2019-09-16T11:39:56Z")
The potential reason for the E.U. to want it is the predicted bad economic outcomes for them too. Assuming hard Brexit and bad predictions true then a let’s pretend this never happened would be a mutual self interest. But on the U.K. side it would be a referendum instructing Parliament to make it so? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/371 "2019-09-16T13:18:59Z")
Banksy’s chimp-filled Parliament up for sale amid Brexit chaos: [Banksy's chimp-filled Parliament up for sale amid Brexit chaos - CNN Style](https://www.cnn.com/style/article/banksy-devolved-parliament-gbr-scli-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/372 "2019-09-16T14:22:41Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > The UK would need to be on the brink of an Argentina before they’d be allowed to rejoin the EFTA. The Norwegian political establishment had a cross-party panic at the though when it was first advanced. the phrase “national interest” showed up, and it rarely does in consensus-oriented Norway. > > They’ve mellowed somewhat since, and one was heard to say off the record “Its not been long enough since the war (WW2) to bar them if the dumb …s are really on the brink”. > > So its considered a highly undesirable outcome by Norway. > > Now, the EFTA\_EU agreement was originally made when the two blocks were more equal in size and economies. So if the UK wanted to rejoin the EEA not as Norway, Iceland etc have by through a separate deal, they would have a lot less bargaining power. Just for those who may not be aware, the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) is a parallel trading group to the former European Economic Community (EEC) which transformed into the current European Union (EU). The UK was a founding EFTA member in 1960, but left in 1973 when it joined the EEC. So any rejoining of EFTA would not be the same as rejoining the EU. > **[European Free Trade Association | United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association#United_Kingdom)** > > The United Kingdom was a co-founder of EFTA in 1960, but ceased to be a member upon joining the European Economic Community. The country held a referendum in 2016 on withdrawing from the EU (popularly referred to as "Brexit"), resulting in a 51.9% vote in favour of withdrawing. A 2013 research paper presented to the Parliament of the United Kingdom proposed a number of alternatives to EU membership which would continue to allow it access to the EU's internal market, including continuing EEA membe... While the details aren’t specified, the EU is seeking a free trade agreement with the UK. From the Political Declaration, which is the parallel document to the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement: > [@](#): > > the Parties agree to develop an ambitious, wide-ranging and balanced economic partnership. This partnership will be comprehensive, encompassing a free trade area as well as wider sectoral cooperation where it is in the mutual interest of both Parties. It will be underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part. It should facilitate trade and investment between the Parties to the extent possible, while respecting the integrity of the Union’s Single Market and the Customs Union as well as the United Kingdom’s internal market, and recognising the development of an independent trade policy by the United Kingdom beyond this economic partnership. [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment\_data/file/759021/25\_November\_Political\_Declaration\_setting\_out\_the\_framework\_for\_the\_future\_relationship\_between\_the\_European\_Union\_and\_the\_United\_Kingdom\_\_.pdf](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759021/25_November_Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom__.pdf) (PDF) paragraph 17. So it’s unlikely the EU would seek to forbid the UK from rejoining the EFTA, should the UK choose that path. As for Norway, a current member of the EFTA, objecting to the UK from rejoining the EFTA, I don’t understand why they would. I could understand Norway objecting if the UK was seeking more favourable terms than Norway has. Likewise, I could see Norway seeking some gains in areas which interest them such as fisheries policy. However, there’s little historical animosity between Norway and the UK, and there are big differences between the two country’s economies. It seems like both countries would mutually benefit by being within a free trade agreement. So why would such an arrangement be “considered a highly undesirable outcome by Norway”? Regarding the UK needing to be “on the brink of an Argentina”, presuming that you’re referring to currency devaluation and economic hardship, that would make the UK rejoining either the EFTA or the EU less likely, not more. Trade depends on stability and mutual beneficence. Nations aren’t likely to enter into agreements with other countries when those countries are going to be unlikely to meet their obligations. ETA: Sorry if this is a hijack from the Boris Johnson discussion. I lost track of which thread In was in. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/373 "2019-09-16T15:26:35Z")
[This was just posted on the AP](https://apnews.com/828d1a2c67314eeea5bdf3b6688a05d8), so I’m going to include the times each bit was posted. The current headline is “ **The Latest: Johnson says he can see ‘shape’ of a Brexit deal** ”. > [@](#): > > 5 p.m. > > British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said after a meeting with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker that “there is a good chance” of a Brexit deal with the European Union. > > Johnson says “I can see the shape” of an agreement, but it will “require movement” from the EU. > > The EU, in contrast, says Britain must move and produce concrete proposals to overcome differences over the Irish border that have so far blocked a deal. The European Commission says Britain has yet to offer any “legally operational” plans. > > Johnson said he is serious about getting a deal by next month, “but if we can’t do it by then we will make sure we can come out on Oct. 31, deal or no deal.” > [@](#): > > 4:50 p.m. > > Luxembourg’s prime minister has urged British counterpart Boris Johnson to hurry up and make written proposals if he really wants to offer his country a path out of the Brexit impasse. > > Xavier Bettel said after a meeting with Johnson that he told his British counterpart: “We need written proposals, so stop speaking (and) act. I hear a lot, but I don’t read a lot.” > [@](#): > > Bettel also insisted it was the U.K.’s decision to leave the European Union, and therefore Britain couldn’t blame the EU for the situation the 2016 referendum has created. > > Bettel added another delay to Britain’s planned departure from the bloc on Oct. 31 wouldn’t be ideal because Europeans citizens now seek “clarity.” He said the current situation is a “nightmare.” I continue to think that Boris Johnson has no plans to negotiate anything and that he will defy the law requiring him to ask for another extension. I think he’s prevaricating like a motherfucker and should not be trusted in any way shape or form. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/374 "2019-09-16T16:05:42Z")
“I am confident we can learn to fly like birds but whether we do or not, we will be throwing ourselves off a cliff on 31 October.” > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I continue to think that Boris Johnson has no plans to negotiate anything and that he will defy the law requiring him to ask for another extension. Yup. His billionaire buddies demand it of him. > [@](#): > > I think he’s prevaricating like a motherfucker and should not be trusted in any way shape or form. YMMV. Yup. That’s been pretty much his whole shtick. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/375 "2019-09-16T18:22:48Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > So it’s unlikely the EU would seek to forbid the UK from rejoining the EFTA, should the UK choose that path. I am not at all sure the EU have the right to veto new EFTA members. I do believe they could block entry into the EEA though, one does not automatically follow the other. Switzerland is not in the EEA, and it is unlikely that the UK would want to be, as it would have to accept free movement of people. That would move the EFTA center of gravity firmly outside the EEA, another problem. > [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > As for Norway, a current member of the EFTA, objecting to the UK from rejoining the EFTA, I don’t understand why they would. I could understand Norway objecting if the UK was seeking more favourable terms than Norway has. Likewise, I could see Norway seeking some gains in areas which interest them such as fisheries policy. However, there’s little historical animosity between Norway and the UK, and there are big differences between the two country’s economies. It seems like both countries would mutually benefit by being within a free trade agreement. So why would such an arrangement be “considered a highly undesirable outcome by Norway”? It is not a matter of enmity, but a matter of pretty much everyone form the far left to the far right believing it will damage us. Potentially a lot. There is in fact some willingness to take damage if the UK is really on the brink of the abyss but it would have to be exceedingly severe situation for the UK. For starters the UK has an economy tuned completely differently to ours and is 13 times as large. In fact it is five times the size of the total EFTA population. The UK operates what from the EFTA perspective is a comparatively low median wage, low skills economy, where the “Nordic model” is based on much higher wages for the basic jobs. The economic interests are highly divergent, and we are much more dependent on trade than the UK. Not to mention the issues of the size of the UK agricultural market. It would be much like Russia entering into an economic union with the Nordic nations, or Canada. The UK could ruin us, and the rest without noticing much just based on its size. A UK in the EFTA would have to be exceptionally careful about its policies and sensitive to the vulnerabilities of the economies of other members. I don’t see this generation of the UKs political establishment as remotely capable of that. Also, integrating an economy so much larger and so different would probably take a lot of time and be far more complicated than leaving the EU has been. There is also the fact that when the original deal between the EFTA and what became the EU was made, the EFTA block included Sweden, Denmark, the UK, Finland (ass.) Austria and Portugal in addition to the current members. It was far more of a negotiation between equals. Being one of the two largest inheritors of that deal has been very good to Norway and is not a position we are eager to yield. > [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Regarding the UK needing to be “on the brink of an Argentina”, presuming that you’re referring to currency devaluation and economic hardship, that would make the UK rejoining either the EFTA or the EU less likely, not more. Trade depends on stability and mutual beneficence. Nations aren’t likely to enter into agreements with other countries when those countries are going to be unlikely to meet their obligations. According to the off the record remarks of Norwegian politicians it would need to be quite a bit worse than that. Generally, only Iceland sees benefits to having the UK join. The others are [negative](https://www.aftenposten.no/verden/i/RVe22/Storbritannia-kan-bli-snikmedlem-i-EFTA-Det-blir-fort-et-problem-for-Norge), with Switzerland moderatly so and Norway the most. (But still hoping _someone else_ will veto it) Well, Carl Baudenbacher wanted the UK in, [its what got him fired from his job as president of the EFTA supreme court.](https://www.adressa.no/nyheter/utenriks/2017/11/15/Omdiskutert-president-g%C3%A5r-av-fra-EFTA-domstolen-15606544.ece) Its very rare to see the entire political spectrum in Norway have such a lockstep reaction. Almost unprecedented. Now there is enough of a sense of historical close relations and debts that the establishment has moved to the understanding that UK could be admitted if it was that or the abyss (also, we don’t want our biggest trading partner to collapse), but it would be an exceedingly complex negotiation. [Norway is skeptical.](https://www.aftenposten.no/verden/i/A0dR3/Norge-er-skeptisk-til-a-slippe-britene-inn-i-EFTA) ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/376 "2019-09-16T20:27:46Z")
Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal. […] ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/377 "2019-09-16T20:30:21Z")
[…] ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/378 "2019-09-16T21:13:09Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > Hacker: Europe is a community of nations , … Please observe fair use for copyright, and attribute the works that you are copy and pasting. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/379 "2019-09-17T00:41:49Z")
Ther’s a couple of issues with the UK joining EFTA: 1. UK dwarfs all the existing EFTA members put together. In a five-member EFTA, UK would represent 70% of combined GDP; the other four 30% between them. There are fears that this would lead to EFTA’s positions and interests being rebalanced in a way not to the advantage of the other four members, and that EFTA could become UK-centric in much the way that the UK is England-centric. 2. UK as an EU member state has not in recent years displayed much team spirit or compehension of the nature of consensus buildiing or collaboration in the exercise of poooled sovereignty. This wouldn’t exactly fill EFTA mebmers with a sense of confidence about how the UK might behave as an EFTA member state. 3. EFTA members would resent then notion that EFTA membership was seen as a kind of nursery school for states not mature enough to be trusted with grown-up EU membership. In short, I think for existing EFTA member states to welcome the prospect of the UK joining, a necessary (thought not sufficient) condition would be a change in the UK political climate such that EFTA membership was seen as desirable in its own right, and something to which the UK would make a mature commitment, rather than a panicked response to the realities of no-deal Brexit, when experienced. In principle, this isnt’ an unattainable goal. Norway’s enduring semi-detached relationship with the EU, expressed through EFTA membership, is precisely the outcome of (a) a near-even division of opinion within the country over whether to be EU members (as in the UK) coupled with (b) a recognition that this calls for the construction of a consensus in favour of a relationship with the EU which takes seriously, and addresses, the concerns of those on both sides of that split (very much as _ **not** _ in the UK). Until UK political culture changes to the point where building a consensus solution is seen as a positive strength and not as a weakness or, at best, a reluctant compromise with necessity, EFTA membership is going to be problematic. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/380 "2019-09-17T01:30:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Please observe fair use for copyright, and attribute the works that you are copy and pasting. > > [/moderating] Sorry, I assumed anything C&P’d from WikiQuote would be fair use. And what Doper requires attribution to know what show Hacker and Applebee are from? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/381 "2019-09-17T01:51:37Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > Sorry, I assumed anything C&P’d from WikiQuote would be fair use. And what Doper requires attribution to know what show Hacker and Applebee are from? Appleby. As all Dopers should know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=20)