# Prime Minister Boris Johnson tries to lead the UK but has resigned on July 7, 2022 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872 "2019-07-30T14:24:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/662 "2019-10-04T15:37:31Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > The question of interpretation seems to be around the extent to which the first part “the PM must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension…” is constrained by the following: “by sending to the President of the European Council a letter…” > > The “Number 10” reading is that this requires the PM to send a letter, which will seek to obtain an extension. > The alternate reading is that this requires the PM to seek an extension, and that sending a letter happens to be the mechanism by which he will do this. > > Under the first reading, all that is mandated is the sending of one letter. Any further letters, or muttered asides, or text messages reading “Lol jk, ignore ltr” are at the PM’s discretion. Under the second reading, the PM is required to seek an extension. Any attempts at undercutting the formal request will amount to deliberate failure to fulfill legally mandated public duties. > > I think it can be read both ways. I don’t know what principles of legal interpretation might lead one towards one reading or another. Would be interested to hear from lawyers… Obviously I’m not a lawyer, perhaps someone who is can clarify or correct anything I say here. My understanding is that in general, especially in criminal law, laws are interpreted as narrowly as possible in terms of what they prohibit. I’m still not sure whether this law (or another) would make it criminal if Johnson were not to comply fully. I’m also not clear if a law _compelling_ an action is treated in the same narrow way as one prohibiting one. My reading of the text of the bill, as I understand normal English rather than legal phrasing, would agree with the Downing Street interpretation, in that Johnson would not be compelled nor prohibited from any actions regarding an extension apart from sending the exact letter contained in the bill. So, he could potentially send the letter then immediately send another letter asking the EU to disregard it, for example. I would be surprised if there were any _criminal_ sanction on him for doing so, unless the current Scottish court case were to make it clear that he may not do it. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/663 "2019-10-04T16:34:40Z")
Legal opinion seems to be that Johnson can’t get round the Benn Act by any of the methods mentioned. e.g. [Brexit, Padfield, and the Benn Act](https://davidallengreen.com/2019/09/brexit-padfield-and-the-benn-act/) Johnson doesn’t have to comply only with the letter of the law, but with the intention of the law. This is the Padfield principle: > [@](#): > > Put simply: it is not open to a Minister to do a thing (or not do a thing) that would circumvent or frustrate an Act of Parliament. This is apart from the two cases in the Scottish courts. One seems be going against Johnson, decision on Monday. The other will be heard on Tuesday. [Johnson will write to EU requesting article 50 extension, court told](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/04/boris-johnson-will-write-to-eu-requesting-article-50-extension-court-told-brexit) If Johnson tries to ignore the Act, he can be fined or imprisoned, and someone else can be designated to make the request to the EU. The Supreme Court would act within days. Nothing more has been heard of the idea of proroguing parliament again. Common sense seems to have prevailed for once. Or perhaps the Queen indicated she would be out if Mr Johnson came to call. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/664 "2019-10-04T18:25:18Z")
“One is not receiving visitors at the moment, particularly from 10 Downing Street, as one is doing one’s hair.” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/665 "2019-10-06T01:09:24Z")
[Johnson to Challenge the Queen to Fire Him, Sunday Times Reports](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-06/johnson-to-challenge-the-queen-to-fire-him-sunday-times-reports): > [@](#): > > U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson is prepared to challenge Queen Elizabeth II to dismiss him rather than resign as he attempts to push through Brexit by the Oct. 31 deadline, the Sunday Times reported, citing senior aides. > > Johnson would not step aside if his Brexit proposals were rejected by the European Union, and even if members of the U.K. Parliament declare no confidence in his government and agree to a caretaker prime minister to replace him, according to the report. > > Failure to reach a deal would set the U.K. on a course for constitutional showdown with few precedents: Johnson has promised to pull the country out of the EU on Oct. 31 whether the talks succeed, while Parliament has already legislated to prevent him from taking U.K. out of the European bloc without a withdrawal agreement. > > “Unless the police turn up at the doors of 10 Downing Street with a warrant for the prime minister’s arrest, he won’t be leaving,” one senior Conservative said in the report. > > The last time a British monarch fired a prime minister was in 1834, it said. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/666 "2019-10-06T03:07:10Z")
Remind me again - this is a _Conservative_ Prime Minister? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/667 "2019-10-06T09:56:16Z")
On the plus side, if he gets away with the whole thing, it becomes very likely that he will reach a favorable trade deal with America because of Trump’s love for dictators. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/668 "2019-10-06T13:21:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > On the plus side, if he gets away with the whole thing, it becomes very likely that he will reach a favorable trade deal with America because of Trump’s love for dictators. 1. A two-thirds approval in the Senate is needed to approve treaties, but the Democrats are opposing a U.S.-U.K. trade deal unless there is a satisfactory resolution of the Irish border problem. 2. It takes many years to complete trade treaties, Trump may well not be President then. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/669 "2019-10-06T13:49:59Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Nothing more has been heard of the idea of proroguing parliament again. Common sense seems to have prevailed for once. Or perhaps the Queen indicated she would be out if Mr Johnson came to call. 🙂 > [@](#): > > October 2, 2019. The government has confirmed it plans to prorogue Parliament next Tuesday and hold a Queen’s Speech on 14 October. > > Boris Johnson’s last attempt to suspend Parliament in this way was ruled unlawful by the Supreme Court. But the government needs to bring the current parliamentary session to an end, before it can hold a Queen’s Speech setting out its agenda for the next session. It means there will be no Prime Minister’s Questions next week. > > The only time Boris Johnson - who missed PMQs on Wednesday due to his Conservative conference speech - has taken part in the session since becoming PM was on 4 September. > > In a statement, No 10 said the planned prorogation - which must be approved by the Queen - would be “for the shortest time possible” to enable logistical and security preparations for the State Opening of Parliament. > **[Parliament to be prorogued next Tuesday](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49913130)** > > The government wants a short suspension of Parliament ahead of a Queen's Speech on 14 October. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/670 "2019-10-06T15:00:14Z")
[The AP is reporting that Johnson wrote in two of today’s newspapers that the UK will be leaving the EU by 31 October.](https://apnews.com/9c409be63f19473cbe6b173fb1649dda) > [@](#): > > Boris Johnson, writing in The Sun on Sunday and Sunday Express newspapers, is contradicting a government pledge in court to ask for an extension if no withdrawal deal with the EU is reached. > > He said “we will be packing our bags and walking out on” Oct. 31. > > He added: “The only question is whether Brussels cheerily waves us off with a mutually agreeable deal or whether we will be forced to head off on our own.” The brief piece notes: > [@](#): > > A U.K. government document quoted in a Scottish court Friday indicated Johnson intends to comply with a law requiring him to ask for a delay if there’s no deal in place by Oct. 19. Here’s my guess: on the 19th he sends a letter asking for an extension. On the 20th he sends a letter saying “never mind; we’re good” and then the UK leaves without a deal on 31 October. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/671 "2019-10-06T15:50:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Here’s my guess: on the 19th he sends a letter asking for an extension. On the 20th he sends a letter saying “never mind; we’re good” and then the UK leaves without a deal on 31 October. That won’t work. See post #661 above. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/672 "2019-10-06T16:20:06Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > That won’t work. See post #661 above. You mean it _may_ not work. And let’s be realistic, if the courts order the arrest and imprisonment of a Prime Minister who still has the confidecne of Parliament, we have a far greater constitutional crisis than previously, and a far bigger problem to deal with than Brexit. If Parliament actually wanted to bind the PM to seek an extension by whatever means necessary, they could have passed a bill to do so - but they did not. They passed a bill requiring one specific action to seek an extension, and further actions in the event an extension is passed. A Supreme Court finding tortuous interpretations of simple laws for political purposes would be far to American for comfort, regardless of whether you agree with the politics of it. There are better ways to deal with this issue, and the most obvious one is for Parliament to install a PM they trust. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/673 "2019-10-06T16:41:27Z")
Yes, let’s be realistic. If Johnson tried that, it would easily be nullified by any court the next day. Completely straightforward, and no ‘tortuous interpretations’ needed. Also, the EU is not stupid, and they are carefully watching every detail of what’s happening in the UK. How do you imagine they would react? Laughter, probably, followed by granting the extension. Johnson’s real ‘secret plan’ may be to persuade Hungary to veto the extension. But good luck to him with that. However sympathetic the current Hungarian government may be to him, the EU has a LOT more leverage over Hungary than Johnson has. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/674 "2019-10-06T17:15:44Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > If Johnson tried that, it would easily be nullified by any court the next day. Completely straightforward, and no ‘tortuous interpretations’ needed. Nullify what, exactly? You think the Court is going to write to the EU telling them to disregard one, but only one of the letters from the PM? And you think the EU will consider themselves bound by a UK court judgement? > [@](#): > > Also, the EU is not stupid, and they are carefully watching every detail of what’s happening in the UK. How do you imagine they would react? Laughter, probably, followed by granting the extension. I could be wrong, but I don’t think they can unilaterally grant an extension. Indeed, it’s far from clear that they will actually grant it anyway, without a clear path forward from an extension. > [@](#): > > Johnson’s real ‘secret plan’ may be to persuade Hungary to veto the extension. But good luck to him with that. However sympathetic the current Hungarian government may be to him, the EU has a LOT more leverage over Hungary than Johnson has. Or France, or anyone else who is sick of all this nonsense. Not that it’s likely to be necessary to do any of that, as while Johnson remains PM, he can keep telling the EU that the UK doesn’t require an extension, and tie up any disputes in court for the 11 whole days that will be necessary. If Johnson is still PM on October 31st, we will leave the EU. Much to the delight of the leaders of the two main parties, and idiots everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/675 "2019-10-06T17:17:03Z")
Oh, and to add to that, what makes you think that the EU wouldn’t be fine with, say, Hungary vetoing the extension? It allows them to put an end to this mess with a convenient scapegoat. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/676 "2019-10-06T17:36:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, and to add to that, what makes you think that the EU wouldn’t be fine with, say, Hungary vetoing the extension? It allows them to put an end to this mess with a convenient scapegoat. For some reason, you seem to imagine that the EU _wants_ the UK to leave with no deal. They most definitely don’t. A no-deal Brexit would have a big impact on the EU, though less than on Britain, of course. The EU has already made provision to [declare a no-deal Brexit a major natural disaster](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/eu-could-declare-no-deal-brexit-as-major-natural-disaster). > [@](#): > > The European commission will propose dipping into a solidarity fund created in 2002 to help member states deal with natural disasters such as floods, storms, volcanic eruptions and forest fires. > > Brexit is a “singular event” that “could constitute a major disaster and therefore the activation of the solidarity principle, which is the core of the [fund], would be justified,” states a copy of the proposal seen by the Guardian. > > Further money will be available from the EU’s “globalisation adjustment fund”, intended to support workers who lose their jobs when factories go bust. If the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal on 31 October, there will be a “significant impact on trade patterns, growth and jobs,” the document states. EU finances and the Euro are in a delicate state right now, and they will try to avoid a financial shock if they think there is any realistic possibility of doing so. As long as there is a possibility of a general election and/or a second referendum, with Britain taking a different direction, they will grant an extension. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/677 "2019-10-06T18:11:03Z")
From what I see, the EU would prefer to have a deal that minimizes the financial downsides of Brexit but isn’t willing to screw over Ireland to get it. They want to make sure they act ethically before they make sure to act beneficially to themselves. So, the opposite of what’s going on with the whole Brexit/GOP civilizational mental breakdown. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/678 "2019-10-06T19:12:47Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > From what I see, the EU would prefer to have a deal that minimizes the financial downsides of Brexit but isn’t willing to screw over Ireland to get it. They want to make sure they act ethically before they make sure to act beneficially to themselves. So, the opposite of what’s going on with the whole Brexit/GOP civilizational mental breakdown. More to the point, Ireland isn’t willing to screw over Ireland to get it. So anything that needs the unanimous 27 needs to convince Ireland. Which has kind of has a history with Britain, and may remember a few of the lessons learned in the last 800 years. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/679 "2019-10-06T20:04:09Z")
There is no legal requirement that Ireland has to approve the Withdrawal agreement: > [@](#): > > The EU parliament, including the MEPs from the UK, must consent by simple majority to the Withdrawal Agreement – but does not have the power to amend it. In this case, the Council of the EU needs to adopt it by super-qualified majority. This means it needs to get support of 72% of the 27 participating member states (or 20 member states), and the support must also represent 65% of the population of the 27 member states. > **[Brexit: what has to happen in UK and EU parliaments to ratify withdrawal and...](http://theconversation.com/brexit-what-has-to-happen-in-uk-and-eu-parliaments-to-ratify-withdrawal-and-future-trade-agreements-107127)** > > What role do EU institutions and the parliaments of 27 member states have in agreeing the next steps of the Brexit process. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/680 "2019-10-06T20:16:27Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > There is no legal requirement that Ireland has to approve the Withdrawal agreement: > > [Brexit: what has to happen in UK and EU parliaments to ratify withdrawal and future trade agreements](http://theconversation.com/brexit-what-has-to-happen-in-uk-and-eu-parliaments-to-ratify-withdrawal-and-future-trade-agreements-107127) But they do have to approve the extension that people seem to take for granted. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/681 "2019-10-07T00:35:00Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > There is no legal requirement that Ireland has to approve the Withdrawal agreement: > > [Brexit: what has to happen in UK and EU parliaments to ratify withdrawal and future trade agreements](http://theconversation.com/brexit-what-has-to-happen-in-uk-and-eu-parliaments-to-ratify-withdrawal-and-future-trade-agreements-107127) No _legal_ requirement, no. But as events have unfolded it’s unthinkable politically that the EU would by qualified majority conclude a Withdrawal Agreement to which Ireoland objects on the grounds that it will lead to a hard border. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=35)