# Prime Minister Boris Johnson tries to lead the UK but has resigned on July 7, 2022 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872 "2019-07-30T14:24:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/702 "2019-10-16T01:22:54Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > There is the question of lesser evils. To lots of MPs this is a lesser evil that No Deal. To lots of MPs it is a lesser evil than Soft Brexit. To lots of MPs it is a lesser evil than Remain. The problem is that if this deal is rejected it could easily happen that a worse option will be the result. Yes, but exactly the same arguments could have been (and were) made when May’s deal was put to Parliament, and yet they were not sufficient to get May’s deal ratuified. I think the best hope for any deal that Johnson does put to Parliament is that a lot of the illusions that enabled people to vote against May’s deal in the expectation of something better have by now been burned away, and therefore they may be more actuated by the fear of something worse. The problem is that the deal that Johnson is shaping up to put to Parliament is itself signficantly worse than May’s deal. Economic modelling suggests that it will do much more harm to the UK economy than May’s deal would have done. That makes it really difficult for those who voted against May’s deal to vote for Johnson’s. This consideration doesn’t apply to those who have an ideological commitment to hard Brexit and who are simply in denial about the adverse economic impacts. But there may not be enough such people in Parliament to get the deal through. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/703 "2019-10-17T05:48:33Z")
O frabjous day! Hoist with their own petard! It looks like Johnson’s deal may be scuppered by a 2018 legal amendment by Rees-Mogg and the ERG, aimed at Theresa May’s deal. [Boris Johnson Brexit deal hits late legal challenge as it breaks legislation from… Jacob Rees-Mogg](https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-faces-late-legal-challenge-as-it-breaks-legislation-from-jacob-rees-mogg/16/10/) [Section 55](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/22/section/55/enacted) of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 couldn’t be any clearer: > [@](#): > > 1. **Single United Kingdom customs territory** > > (1) It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain. > > (2) For the purposes of this section “customs territory” shall have the same meaning as in the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1947 as amended. An application by Jo Maugham QC for an urgent court injunction against Johnson’s deal will be lodged on Thursday, and heard on Friday. Of course, section 55 could be repealed, but Johnson doesn’t have the time or the votes. _“O ’tis most sweet / When in one line two crafts directly meet!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/704 "2019-10-17T06:30:57Z")
[It looks like Johnson’s deal may also be scuppered by the DUP saying they won’t (“could not”!) support it.](https://apnews.com/ac80b8ab7f854c0595f2e208abf91930) > [@](#): > > Support from the Democratic Unionist Party is key to Johnson’s plan to get an agreement approved by parliament. But DUP leader Arlen Foster and the party’s parliamentary chief Nigel Dodds say they “could not support what is being suggested on customs and consent issues.” > > Those arrangements are key to guaranteeing an open border between the U.K.’s Northern Ireland and EU member Ireland — the main obstacle to a Brexit deal. > > Without the DUP’s support, any deal is unlikely to be ratified by the U.K. Parliament. > > Foster and Dodds said they would continue to work with the U.K. government to get a “sensible” deal. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/705 "2019-10-17T09:44:39Z")
Looks like the DUP were brought back on board. These things seem to be announced on twitter these days so: > > [@](#): > > **Originally tweeted by Jean-Claude Juncker** > ������������������������������ Where there is a will, there is a #deal - we have one! It’s a fair and balanced agreement for the EU and the UK and it is testament to our commitment to find solutions. I recommend that #EUCO endorses this deal The revised Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration are apparently attached to Juncker’s letter. I’ll post a link when someone gets hold of them. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/706 "2019-10-17T09:50:31Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Looks like the DUP were brought back on board. Or maybe not…Per every political reporter in the UK the DUP are _not_ on board. High-risk strategy by the govt then. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/707 "2019-10-17T09:58:39Z")
It wouldn’t surprise me if Johnson told Juncker one thing and Arlene Foster quite another. He’s already thought u “Schrödinger’s border”. “Schrödinger’s majority” isn’t too much of a leap for his imagination. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/708 "2019-10-17T10:20:01Z")
The EU have ensured that whatever happens they can’t be blamed for obstructing a deal. Whether it will get through parliament is another question. After all, Theresa May also had a deal… and Corbyn has just issued a statement saying that it’s “an even worse deal than Theresa May’s”. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/709 "2019-10-17T11:31:55Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The EU have ensured that whatever happens they can’t be blamed for obstructing a deal… They’ve not actively obstructed, they don’t have to. However, they will have certainly made sure that the deal is not possible to pass in the UK parliament. They don’t want a deal to pass because, as we already know, they don’t believe the UK will trigger a no deal and so remain continues to be possible. That’s the calculation anyhow, but it is a gamble. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/710 "2019-10-17T11:44:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > They’ve not actively obstructed, they don’t have to. However, they will have certainly made sure that the deal is not possible to pass in the UK parliament. They don’t want a deal to pass because, as we already know, they don’t believe the UK will trigger a no deal and so remain continues to be possible. > > That’s the calculation anyhow, but it is a gamble. I don’t even think it’s that. I think the problem is literally that there is no possible deal that would be agreeable to the EU, the Government (including the DUP) and Parliament. Theresa May managed two out of three briefly but even that required a \*\*lot \*\*of compromise. The EU aren’t “obstructing”; they’re just not willing to accept a deal that isn’t remotely to their benefit, whereas the Government wants a deal that contains at least one big “win” and Parliament wants something that won’t actively damage the country. There’s no overlap there. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/711 "2019-10-17T12:17:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t even think it’s that. I think the problem is literally that there is no possible deal that would be agreeable to the EU, the Government (including the DUP) and Parliament. Theresa May managed two out of three briefly but even that required a \*\*lot \*\*of compromise. well it also has to satisfy the will of people who originally voted as well. That has been the problem from the start. Parliament is heavily skewed “remain” and has been angling to prevent any form of Brexit from the start, they still are, it isn’t a huge mystery. > [@](#): > > The EU aren’t “obstructing”; they’re just not willing to accept a deal that isn’t remotely to their benefit, whereas the Government wants a deal that contains at least one big “win” and Parliament wants something that won’t actively damage the country. There’s no overlap there. And bubbling below the surface, no matter what happens, is a simmering resentment from the substantial part of the population that feels their voice has been ignored. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/712 "2019-10-17T12:38:19Z")
Yeah, Boris Johnson is leading the UK out of Europe, which is precisely what he said he’d do and is in alignment with the wishes of the British people expressed in the referendum. I see no problem here at all, unless of course you believe that lawmakers know better than the people who elect them. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/713 "2019-10-17T12:59:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > well it also has to satisfy the will of people who originally voted as well. This is a big problem, even accepting that you’re not counting Remain voters as contributing to the will of the people. 17.4 million people don’t have one will that can be satisfied. Some of the 17.4 million will be satisfied with being outside the customs union, some will not. Some will feel that having a border in the Irish Sea reflects what they voted for, some will not. Some will affirm that they voted to remove the current legal framework covering workers’ rights and environmental regulations, some will not. Any deal will be against the will of the vast majority of Remain voters, and an unknown proportion of Leave voters. The chances that this adds up to “satisfying the will of the people” are vanishingly small. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/714 "2019-10-17T13:18:21Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Yeah, Boris Johnson is leading the UK out of Europe, which is precisely what he said he’d do and is in alignment with the wishes of the British people expressed in the referendum. Up to a point, Lord Copper. In July, to pick only the most recent example, Johnson specifically said that he could never countenance any kind of border in the Irish Sea. Now, he’s saying that having one is a great deal. Nobody voting to Leave expressed any kind of wish about whether or not Northern Ireland and Great Britain should have different customs agreements with the EU - a vote to Leave could cover total unification, utter separation and everything in between. The idea that the Leave vote is a blank cheque which the government can fill in as it sees fit and _still guarantee to be fulfilling the wishes of the people_ just doesn’t stand up. If it turns out that the deal is a bad one that makes life for people in the UK materially worse, the response of the people will not be “This is exactly what I wanted; thank you for fulfilling my wishes.” They will say, quite accurately, that while they voted to Leave, this particular shitshow was not what they wanted and certainly not what they were promised. Hence, it’s incumbent on both Government and Parliament to find the best deal to Leave the EU that is consistent with minimising disruption and harm to the UK - not just to sign up to any deal that superficially satisfies the need to Leave regardless of its impact on the people both institutions are set up to serve. > [@](#): > > I see no problem here at all, unless of course you believe that lawmakers know better than the people who elect them. Well…yeah? I mean not just in respect of Brexit, but as a matter of general principle, knowing more than me about the detailed impact of specific policy choices is exactly what I elect lawmakers to do. That’s literally their job - to put forward, debate and approve (or not) concrete policies. It requires a level of knowledge, expertise and time commitment that, what with having a day job, I’d struggle to apply to just one minor area of government policy. Having lawmakers who only know as much as I do - at best! - about, say, effective environmental regulation, seems like a recipe for disaster. How could it not be? Do you vote for people who know less than you? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/715 "2019-10-17T13:34:04Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Yeah, Boris Johnson is leading the UK out of Europe, which is precisely what he said he’d do and is in alignment with the wishes of the British people expressed in the referendum. I see no problem here at all, unless of course you believe that lawmakers know better than the people who elect them. Are you being sarcastic? Lawmakers generally DO know more than the people who elect them. [President Bartlet said it better than I could.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9jb8DywH2s) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/716 "2019-10-17T14:00:05Z")
[There will be no extension, according to Juncker.](https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1184827396928741378) So Boris can be forced by Parliament or the courts to write all the letters they want, and we will still leave on the 31st. Unless Parliament actually get of their arses and _do something_. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/717 "2019-10-17T15:07:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > [There will be no extension, according to Juncker.](https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1184827396928741378) So Boris can be forced by Parliament or the courts to write all the letters they want, and we will still leave on the 31st. Unless Parliament actually get of their arses and _do something_. That’s not exactly the words he used and he is not the sole decision-maker on this either. Take it with a pinch of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/718 "2019-10-17T15:13:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s not exactly the words he used and he is not the sole decision-maker on this either. Take it with a pinch of salt. A pinch, perhaps, but it will only take one country to ensure no extension, and Juncker having said this will make the handful of countries that are against an extension much more likely to stick to that position. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/719 "2019-10-17T15:21:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > A pinch, perhaps, but it will only take one country to ensure no extension, and Juncker having said this will make the handful of countries that are against an extension much more likely to stick to that position. I don’t think it means anything, he really couldn’t have said anything else. It is perfectly non-committal whilst \*sounding \*decisive. A politicians answer of course. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/720 "2019-10-17T17:50:09Z")
And as expected, the “no extension” is [nothing of the kind.](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/17/boris-johnson-and-eu-reach-brexit-deal-without-dup-backing) (but of course, if we wait half an hour I bet I’ll be proved wrong) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872/721 "2019-10-18T07:02:54Z")
From [Michael Dougan](https://twitter.com/mdouganlpool) Professor of European Law, University of Liverpool Joint Editor, Common Market Law Review > [@](#): > > Vast majority of Withdrawal Agreement remains identical to that finalised by Theresa May – the one that was repeatedly denounced by so many Brexiters (vassal state, money down drain etc) & justifiably criticised by sane commentators (esp flawed citizens’ rights regime). Only substantive change is to the Irish Protocol. EU succeeds in protecting basic integrity of Single Market whilst avoiding hard border across Ireland: customs and regulatory checks (new as well as expanded) will take place between GB and NI. > > How? NI will remain subject to large swathes of EU legislation on customs, VAT, goods, energy, state aid etc; on dynamic basis / in accordance with ECJ caselaw. Many of the rules will be enforced by UK bodies, but EU will also exercise various powers / roles in respect of NI. Yet formally, NI will be part of UK customs territory. HMG promises that NI will share in “UK trade benefits”. But whatever they might be (?!?), they are unlikely to compensate for the enormous cost to NI economy in terms of added customs complexity and bureaucracy. > > After all: requires nightmarish system for determining / administering which goods pay EU / UK / no customs duties. Effectively based on presumption that EU duties should apply unless & until proved otherwise – followed by burdensome system of refunds by UK authorities. > > Subject to NI consent (below): revised backstop will apply unless & until replaced by new EU-UK trade deal. That is never likely to happen. Johnson’s vision of future EU-UK relations does not allow for alternative customs / regulatory system. In reality, this is permanent unless NI institutions later decide that “backstop” regime should be terminated. But DUP can’t veto extension of Protocol into the future: boohoo. Instead, on rolling basis: cross-community support = 8 year prolongation; though simple majority = still 4 year continuation > > HMG maintains promise that customs / regulatory barriers would run only from GB into NI; but NI will enjoy (almost) unfettered access to GB market. So problems of equity for Scotland / Wales / English regions remain: new “UK internal market” = asymmetrical from its birth. > > Last/not least: revised Political Declaration remains much same but with few tweaks intended to increase future distance between EU/UK. Of course, they don’t matter very much: document isn’t binding; might never be agreement; might take many years; might look very different. But underlying reality remains: this deal might help with immediate challenges of “orderly Brexit”; but in many respects, is just postponing dreaded “cliff edge” by another year or so – after which, still paves way for hard right agenda of economic and social deregulation. > > Conclusion? EU has strong interest in promoting this agreement as way to avoid chaotic withdrawal. Fair enough: within its prerogative / in its interests. But for UK: this “new deal” also lays ground for Johnson & Co to plough ahead with their damaging and dangerous Brexit. > > **Quick summary of deal? No border across Ireland… but NI left in far worse position than under previous EU or UK backstop plans. A sacrificial lamb to let craven Johnson save own miserable skin & faciliate Hard Brexit for which 2016 vote gave Tories no credible mandate.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-minister-boris-johnson-tries-to-lead-the-uk-but-has-resigned-on-july-7-2022/837872.md?page=37)