# Prime Ministers go to Kyiv. Crazy, dangerous move **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [March 15, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102 "2022-03-15T12:58:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/41 "2022-03-17T00:37:30Z")
> [@Drsunflower1](#): > > AFAICT this is mostly a display of solidarity and a signal towards Putin that the former Eastern Bloc is willing to risk bodily harm to keep this from escalating. I expect that they realized it would have some messaging effect but I don’t think they would go just for that. More likely, they had something to talk about that couldn’t be said over the phone. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/42 "2022-03-17T01:51:28Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Can you imagine how ungovernable the country would become with an abrupt change to President Harris? You think the senate would do anything she asked, or would there be a crippling amount of, “Let’s wait till the next election and let The People decide”. Okay, let’s send McConnell over there. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/43 "2022-03-17T01:52:15Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > None of them are from former Soviet states. Poland and Czechoslovakia were members of the Warsaw Pact and Slovenia was part of a nonaligned Yugoslavia. Does that mean they didn’t side with the USSR during the cold war? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/44 "2022-03-17T01:56:06Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I agree. We haven’t seen this kind of carnage since the Second World War. This is no joking matter. I’ve wondered about that. We haven’t seen people locked up in a church that was set on fire, nor populations rounded up and sent on trains to murder camps. Discussing the situation in numbers is meaningless given that people are being murdered, but surely the Germans killed a higher percentage of the population when attacking a city. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/45 "2022-03-17T01:57:14Z")
It means none of them are former Soviet states as was incorrectly stated in the post I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/46 "2022-03-17T02:00:15Z")
Yes, but isn’t the difference that of not being a state of the USA, but being a member of NATO? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/47 "2022-03-17T02:06:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > but isn’t the difference that of not being a state of the USA, but being a member of NATO? I have no idea what you are asking. Poland and Czechoslovakia were militarily aligned with the USSR but not part of it. Yugoslavia was a socialist country no more aligned with the USSR than China or Finland. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/48 "2022-03-17T02:19:20Z")
Then I stand corrected. I thought Tito was pals with the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/49 "2022-03-17T02:30:07Z")
I still don’t get what your original point was even if all three were aligned with the USSR. There is a big difference between them and countries like Ukraine, Estonia, Georgia, et al that were actual Soviet republics. Even Putin wouldn’t try to make the argument that Poland and the Czech Republic are legit components of a reassembled Soviet Russia. And yes, the difference between a US state and NATO state is not trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/50 "2022-03-17T08:08:05Z")
Poland and the Czech republic (back then it was still Czechoslovakia)were members of the Warschau Pact. I wouldn’t call it alignment, it was more forced fealty and the result of the division of Germany and the rest of Europe post-war than anything else. When Hungary protested the Russian sphere of influence in 1956, the Sovjets invaded. When Czechoslovakia tried for Socialism with a human face under Dubček in 1968, they were invaded by Kruschev. When Solidarity gained traction in Poland in the eighties, the Sovjets were not amused but by then a military intervention was no longer feasible. Communism as form of government was forced upon the Warschau Pact countries, with what could be described as puppet regimes. Some of those had their own autocratic heroes with accompanying cult of personality, like Ceaușescu in Romania. Tito broke away from Stalin in 1948 and Yugoslavia has never been part of the Warschau Pact. They had a different form of Communism that diverted from the Marxist-Leninist Sovjet doctrine in that the workers controlled their own means of production and often owned factories collectively (socialist self-management). This differed markedly from the centrally planned Stalinist economy. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/51 "2022-03-17T14:18:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’ve wondered about that. We haven’t seen people locked up in a church that was set on fire, nor populations rounded up and sent on trains to murder camps. Discussing the situation in numbers is meaningless given that people are being murdered, but surely the Germans killed a higher percentage of the population when attacking a city. Throughout most of WW2, the German military and security apparatus was organized & efficient in a way that the Russians have not come close to achieving. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/52 "2022-03-17T14:20:14Z")
A good point, if somewhat distressing. Teutonic thoroughness. I posted before the building with “CHILDREN” painted around it was bombed. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/53 "2022-03-17T17:41:54Z")
We’re into the pretty dark humor territory when we’re at the stage complaining about: “In -my- day, we had professional killers! No muss, no fuss, got the job done with real efficiency and skill. Now, these modern killers, pshaw, they take no pride in their work! Just haphazardly lob bombs everywhere are are too ashamed to own it even when they hit! No work ethic at all!” My sympathies are entirely with the Ukraine to be clear, and if the recent CNN stories involving interviews with various Russian captives are anything to go by, a lot of the conscript / rank-and-file Russian troops are going to be living with the emotional consequences for the rest of their lives. The officers / generals / Putin - well, nope. Hope your government collapses and you get dragged into trials for war crimes as part of the settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/54 "2022-03-17T17:53:04Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > rank-and-file Russian troops are going to be living with the emotional consequences for the rest of their lives. And if they are in the 18-20 year old range, that means their prime social experimentation years coincided with the most socially isolating two years in recent history. These guys are going to make the violent Vietnam vet stereotype look like the poster child for emotional stability. ---
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/55 "2022-03-17T18:24:22Z")
Read Boys in Zinc by Svetlana Alexievich to catch a glimpse of what is to come. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/56 "2022-03-17T19:02:53Z")
Others have already mentioned that they’re not actually in grave personal danger. Consider: Out of a total population of 44 million Ukrainians, about 14,000 have been killed. If these PMs had the same odds as the general public, they’d have about a 1 in 3000 chance of dying. But they don’t have the same odds: First of all, they’re going to be spending most of their time in the country in heavily-fortified buildings, possibly even underground bunkers. And second, to the extent that there’s any targeting going on, the Russians will be trying not to kill them. It’s still a ballsy decision, to be sure, but I don’t think it’ll cause the Russian offensive to slow down significantly, nor do they expect that to happen. I think that it’s mostly for show, both to show solidarity to the Ukrainians, and to show their own constituencies back home how tough they are. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/57 "2022-03-17T19:13:52Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Kiev Kyiv. The other one is in Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/58 "2022-03-17T19:15:20Z")
> [@Ranch\_Dip](#): > > Kyiv. The other one is in Russia. You sure about that? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/59 "2022-03-17T19:15:47Z")
The Ukrainians spell it Kyiv. I try to respect that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102/60 "2022-03-17T19:16:41Z")
Absolutely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prime-ministers-go-to-kyiv-crazy-dangerous-move/961102.md?page=4)