# Prince: I find him to be a problematic artist **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 1, 2018, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571 "2018-04-01T04:38:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/61 "2018-04-03T00:47:06Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this bit shows you don’t know what you’re talking about. There isn’t a more sexual song in the universe than “Gett Off”. “Darling Nikki” doesn’t even come close. > > The trillions of heterosexual women who are still grieving over Prince’s absence would also vehemently disagree with you. It’s not his unusual horsey face that made the man a virtual sex god in the eyes of many. It wasn’t just his dance moves. It was the sexuality that oozed out of every guitar riff, drum beat, keyboard chord, and yelp. I’m a heterosexual male and I really like Prince and can clearly see his sex appeal. So I agree with you. To the OP: subjective taste is just that. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/62 "2018-04-03T00:52:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this bit shows you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m not a Prince expert; I don’t know his stuff much outside PR and 1999. I meant to refer to what worked for me as “sexy” among the songs that entered my ears during his peak, but I wasn’t clear about it. > [@](#): > > There isn’t a more sexual song in the universe than “Gett Off”. “Darling Nikki” doesn’t even come close. Was just checking out the video. Wow. Terrible song. Just not good music, no good hooks. Lame production. “Darling Nikki” has the advantage of being a great song. And it seems genuinely dirty. The trouble with Prince’s tunes (from his heyday!) that try to be sexy is that they seem to have passed through some faux “this is sexy!” filter. “Nikki” feels real to me; the rest doesn’t (in terms of sexiness). And I think this is an example of how Prince’s sex thing doesn’t work (in the artistic sense. If women dug it, then cool, that helped him make money. I really don’t think it appealed to straight guys, which is a fair point I think on the part of the writer I quoted). In this video, Prince is trying waaaay too hard. He comes across to me as a gay guy trying to play a hyper-sexy straight guy. Again, if that worked with women, fine. To me he just seems absurd and creepy. > [@](#): > > The trillions of heterosexual women who are still grieving over Prince’s absence would also vehemently disagree with you. It’s not his unusual horsey face that made the man a virtual sex god in the eyes of many. It wasn’t just his dance moves. It was the sexuality that oozed out of every guitar riff, drum beat, keyboard chord, and yelp. I wonder if women who are new to his music experience the same appeal. Maybe yes, maybe no. His persona doesn’t disqualify him to me as a musician. In fact, he’s not disqualified: I like a few of his songs quite a bit. I just don’t think he has a large number of good songs. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/63 "2018-04-03T01:02:50Z")
Wow. I get it now. That _is_ problematic. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/64 "2018-04-03T01:05:58Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Was just checking out the video. Wow. Terrible song. Just not good music, no good hooks. Lame production. As a statement of your opinion, that’s fine. But note that the video has 12,000 likes versus 400 dislikes. Many people disagree with you. > [@](#): > > And I think this is an example of how Prince’s sex thing doesn’t work (in the artistic sense. If women dug it, then cool, that helped him make money. I really don’t think it appealed to straight guys, which is a fair point I think on the part of the writer I quoted). In this video, Prince is trying waaaay too hard. He comes across to me as a gay guy trying to play a hyper-sexy straight guy. Again, if that worked with women, fine. To me he just seems absurd and creepy. Ah, maybe we’re getting to the root of the problem. He seems **gay** to you. Let me assure you that many straight males are fans of him, so please don’t try to speak for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/65 "2018-04-03T01:06:30Z")
I can’t even ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/66 "2018-04-03T01:08:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I can’t even I know. It is problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/67 "2018-04-03T01:08:27Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Sure. They may not be all that interesting to \*you \*and / or to the OP. Which is totally fine, but not “problematic.” > > … > > The OP hasn’t explained “problematic” - only that they aren’t big Prince fans. Got it - noted. Scroll up. I defined what I meant. People are making too big a deal about that word choice. I was specifically looking for a word that was not insulting or overly critical. > [@](#): > > Prince is established as a widely, deeply respected musician. Anyone is welcome to not like him or find his sexuality to overt or whatever, but at least start from a place that acknowledges his rep. I think I did. Someone brought up Bowie. I think Prince is loved in a different way that Bowie is. People don’t really seem to get deeply into Prince the way they do into Bowie. Prince’s fame seems interesting in that people seem to have a certain image of his greatness in their minds without being into his music all that much. For example, I am not hearing anyone hear gushing about Prince’s lesser known albums or really trying to sell me. More like, “He was great, and you are wrong. End of chat.” > [@](#): > > I am trying to imagine someone deciding they don’t like, say, The Beatles or Stones or The Who. Would they say “you know, I find The Beatles to be problematic” or would they simply say “yeah, I get that they are popular, but I don’t dig them.” Well, the Who flat out suck, I _will_ denigrate them with confidence, which I won’t do with respect to Prince, as I don’t feel that way. I think he had a lot of talent but ended up not producing a lot of work that was truly great. Big talent, massive popularity, but not a terribly great body of work. To me that makes him interesting to talk about. With the Beatles, one would have to take a different tack. One would have to find an _angle_ with which to assail their fame, as they are almost universally acknowledged as great songwriters and vocalists (at least Lennon and McCartney) and highly original for their time plus constantly evolving throughout their years together. I don’t see Prince being held up in the same way, adored in the same way. Let’s take a counter-example of a band that is _not_ problematic according to my definition. Let’s say Blondie. A band with some good songs, not a huge body of work, not thought of as some amazing pillar of pop/rock. If you say you don’t like their songs, then that’s truly the end of the story, I don’t think too many people will want to throw down about that. Prince, no, that won’t do. He had an insane level of fame, he has a huge body of work (much of which doesn’t seem to be thought of as more than mediocre, even among his fans), and he has staunch defenders. Yet… he doesn’t seem to have that many great songs, and I don’t even hear his fans/defenders here saying he does, that it’s endless amazing music. That’s what I find interesting. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/68 "2018-04-03T01:11:13Z")
Wait. The Who suck? Excuse me? Is there any possibility ya might be in the minority there? Is there _any_ humility available? Any? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/69 "2018-04-03T01:11:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I have to LOL at anyone who critiques the Prince’s entire body of work by citing tracks from “Purple Rain.” By even mentioning “Darling Nikki”, the OP is practically screaming “I only have a supercial understanding of the subject matter I am pontificating about. Please roll your eyes at me.” Is it all that odd? That was his peak, that was his music one was forced to listen to at the time whether one liked it or not. Nothing else of his has ever grabbed me or stuck in my mind. (And I did include 1999 as well, so…) > [@](#): > > Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk I have to roll my eyes at anyone who uses a SPH-L710. LOL OMG!!! j/k ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/70 "2018-04-03T01:11:46Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I’m not a Prince expert; I don’t know his stuff much outside PR and 1999. I meant to refer to what worked for me as “sexy” among the songs that entered my ears during his peak, but I wasn’t clear about it. > > Was just checking out the video. Wow. Terrible song. Just not good music, no good hooks. Lame production. > > “Darling Nikki” has the advantage of being a great song. And it seems genuinely dirty. The trouble with Prince’s tunes (from his heyday!) that try to be sexy is that they seem to have passed through some faux “this is sexy!” filter. “Nikki” feels real to me; the rest doesn’t (in terms of sexiness). > > And I think this is an example of how Prince’s sex thing doesn’t work (in the artistic sense. If women dug it, then cool, that helped him make money. I really don’t think it appealed to straight guys, which is a fair point I think on the part of the writer I quoted). In this video, Prince is trying waaaay too hard. He comes across to me as a gay guy trying to play a hyper-sexy straight guy. Again, if that worked with women, fine. To me he just seems absurd and creepy. > > I wonder if women who are new to his music experience the same appeal. Maybe yes, maybe no. > > His persona doesn’t disqualify him to me as a musician. In fact, he’s not disqualified: I like a few of his songs quite a bit. I just don’t think he has a large number of good songs. :dubious: Again, taste is subjective so this may be a waste of time, Prince has many good songs. A few that I find catchy are U Got the Look, Thieves in the Temple, of course can’t forget Bob George, I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/71 "2018-04-03T01:14:49Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > As a statement of your opinion, that’s fine. But note that the video has 12,000 likes versus 400 dislikes. Many people disagree with you. I acknowledge this. > [@](#): > > Ah, maybe we’re getting to the root of the problem. He seems **gay** to you. Let me assure you that many straight males are fans of him, so please don’t try to speak for all of us. Ha, you wish it were that easy. I love campy gay stuff of all stripes, Jobriath is a personal musical hero. Prince seems like a closeted gay guy trying to fool the world with faux-straight hypersexuality. He just seems creepy and unappealing. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/72 "2018-04-03T01:16:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > :dubious: > > Again, taste is subjective so this may be a waste of time, Prince has many good songs. A few that I find catchy are U Got the Look, Thieves in the Temple, of course can’t forget Bob George, I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man. You reminded me: “Thieves in the Temple” is indeed good. I’m not opposed to liking new Prince songs, being sold one by one. I can only say that his many body of ultra-popular/famous Top 40 hits hasn’t appealed to me. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/73 "2018-04-03T01:19:50Z")
You love Jobriath but The Who flat out suck. Got it. Why should anyone care about your views on Prince? So far, the best you’ve come up with is that he doesn’t blow your skirt up. Spin your prop. Peel your banana. Not my problem, Poindexter. Go learn something. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/74 "2018-04-03T01:22:15Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > But to me, it seemed like all his positives and all his skills didn’t have a convincing point of view behind them. As if (maybe in an effort to avoid being pigeonholed) he was avoiding commitment. As if he put on all the ambiguity stuff simply to cover up the fact that none of what he was doing reflected his real self. As if Prince never meant any of it. Yes, this reflects my feeling. There is no real core to his music. He seems like a cypher. And in real life, he seems to have been a genuine oddball. Like not in a fun way. Like in a reclusive, quiet, unapproachable sort of way. I would compare him to Andy Warhol in that sense, the difference being that Warhol seems to have a real POV to his work. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/75 "2018-04-03T01:22:34Z")
I don’t enjoy Prince’s music. I recognize that he’s talented and it’s well crafted. I still don’t enjoy listening to his material. I sat through several YouTube videos after he died. I couldn’t get enthused by it. I’ve read he had an incredible gift for composition. Several artists asked him to look at songs they were having a problem writing. Prince would untwist the problem quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/76 "2018-04-03T01:23:45Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You love Jobriath but The Who flat out suck. Got it. > > Why should anyone care about your views on Prince? So far, the best you’ve come up with is that he doesn’t blow your skirt up. Spin your prop. Peel your banana. > > Not my problem, Poindexter. Go learn something. I think a good way to make interactions on the Dope unfun is to try to win by invalidating the person you’re arguing against. What’s the point? You disagree. Acknowledged. Feel free not to participate. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/77 "2018-04-03T01:27:24Z")
My disruption of your contemplative circle is “problematic”? I can see that. Have fun. That Warhol angle is deep. You should go with that. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/78 "2018-04-03T01:31:33Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > My disruption of your contemplative circle is “problematic”? > > I can see that. Have fun. That Warhol angle is deep. You should go with that. I’m sure you will find many posts worthy of your intellect! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/79 "2018-04-03T01:35:55Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I think I did. Someone brought up Bowie. I think Prince is loved in a different way that Bowie is. People don’t really seem to get deeply into Prince the way they do into Bowie. Prince’s fame seems interesting in that people seem to have a certain image of his greatness in their minds without being into his music all that much. For example, I am not hearing anyone hear gushing about Prince’s lesser known albums or really trying to sell me. More like, “He was great, and you are wrong. End of chat.” I would recommend some “lesser known” albums to you if I thought it would be worthwhile. But I don’t. You are already convinced that he hit his peak at “Purple Rain”. You think “Gett Off” is a terrible song after a single listen. (I didn’t say “Gett Off” was a great song, by the way. But it’s undeniably sexy. I’ve got the smallest libido in the world, but that song makes even me want to drop my panties.) You think “Darling Nikki” is his only truly sexy song. You seem to think his fans are suffering from either a mass delusion or have poor taste. Why should anyone waste time composing a list of recommendations for you when you’ve clearly demonstrated that you have a low regard for the artist and his body of work? For what it’s worth, I don’t have any Purple Rain tracks in my mp3 player or Spotify playlists. I love Purple Rain, but I don’t consider it his best work. I don’t think most Prince fans do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/80 "2018-04-03T01:36:31Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > People don’t really seem to get deeply into Prince the way they do into Bowie. Prince’s fame seems interesting in that people seem to have a certain image of his greatness in their minds without being into his music all that much. For example, I am not hearing anyone hear gushing about Prince’s lesser known albums or really trying to sell me. More like, “He was great, and you are wrong. End of chat.” I can’t even imagine trying to “sell” you on any artist. Your POV strikes me as very interested in making assertions and making claims about other people’s experiences than it is about a genuine openness to exploring an artist. That’s okay. I’ll just label it problematic and all will be clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571.md?page=5)