# Prince: I find him to be a problematic artist **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 1, 2018, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571 "2018-04-01T04:38:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/121 "2018-04-03T16:55:47Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > It seems to me that “problematic” means overrated. Is that OK? Maybe it’s problematic. > > This is a legitimate question, although it can be dangerous in the intellectual envronment here. I don’t know why it ought to be. Fighting ignorance and making sure everyone feels good, are two different things. But I have rarely seen anyone appreciate that fact. “Problematic” definitely doesn’t mean overrated, it means there are problems with the artist beyond the music. I might be willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt that he simply used the wrong word, but his later posts revealed that he indeed has problems with Prince beyond the music alone. That poisoned the well and makes discussion of if he’s overrated more difficult. Comments that he’s only popular because he’s black don’t help, and neither do suggestions that even though he’s popular with women and black people, it doesn’t _really_ count because appealing to straight white males is the most important thing. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/122 "2018-04-03T16:59:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But melody isn’t the end-all be-all of music and certainly not the only approach to music. I mean, look at James Brown. Guy’s a funk master, but who can whistle a James Brown tune? Doesn’t mean it’s not great music. It is. Maybe it’s doesn’t tickle you in the places you want music to tickle you, but it’s tickled plenty of other people just fine. I don’t know if he “lost touch” with things that you really need in music. I just think it wasn’t as important to him as it is to you. (Though I think Prince did write many lovely melodies, too, like “When 2 R in Love” and I find “When You Were Mine,” a fun early-80s melody. His first two albums, too, have plenty of melodic stuff on them.) But funk is just not a melody-driven genre, so of course you’re not going to have a lot of melody there. And that’s not losing touch with melody, it’s just him being in tune with the genre he’s working in. Melody is most of it for me. The less melody in James Brown the more my mind tends to drift. Sorry James, and funk people. I do not care about that. And I am a musician too. There is no party line you must follow. I will listen to your suggestions. To me that’s what the forum is supposed to be for. People who are challenged to defend the music of their aspirational heroes should be more resilient, and happy to discuss. It’s not an insult unless you take it that way. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/123 "2018-04-03T17:11:15Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Melody is most of it for me. The less melody in James Brown the more my mind tends to drift. Sorry James, and funk people. I do not care about that. And I am a musician too. There is no party line you must follow. > > I will listen to your suggestions. To me that’s what the forum is supposed to be for. People who are challenged to defend the music of their aspirational heroes should be more resilient, and happy to discuss. It’s not an insult unless you take it that way. But that’s perfectly fine. I suspect most of Prince’s work is not going to be your bag if you’re melody-driven. You may also want to check out his second album, self-titled, in addition to Dirty Mind. Lots of R&B style falsetto vocals, that sort of thing going on. Try something like “I Wanna Be Your Lover” and “I Feel For You.” It is, IMHO, not as good as his later work, but it’s more melodic. That said, I only know maybe five or six albums of his work – he just has so much out there. And of course, stuff he wrote for other artists like “Manic Monday” and “Nothing Compares 2 U.” I definitely think he had an ear for melody, but it wasn’t the most important thing for him in his music. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/124 "2018-04-03T17:14:51Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > There is lots of music. It seems to me that Princes influence doesn’t stretch too far into the songwriting that I have been following since Prince and I were small children, and am still following today. We could talk about what mainstream music means but it’s a broad topic and I think you are making some big assumptions. If he is into Joni Mitchell and Stevie Wonder I can’t hear the evidence or positive effect of it in his tunes. That’s problematic to me, if only as a consumer. This is nothing more than a comment on your musical tastes, not the scope of Prince’s influence. If you don’t like Prince, it is not surprising you don’t listen to much music today that was influenced by him. If you’re truly interested in learning about his influence on music, it’s not hard to find plenty of material to read. Here are a few: > **[How Prince influenced a generation of musicians](https://www.dazeddigital.com/music/article/30866/1/how-prince-influenced-a-generation-of-musicians)** > > Pop life as we know it just wouldn't be the same without the funky man from Minneapolis > **[Fuse](https://www.fuse.tv/2016/04/artists-musicians-prince-influenced)** > > Fuse represents the best of the young multicultural generation, celebrating diversity with provocative and honest content. Expanding beyond music to culture, comedy and more, we are constantly evolving and moving forward. Just like you. > **[Prince Dead: Musicians Influenced by Prince](https://people.com/celebrity/musicians-influenced-by-prince/)** > > From Kelly Clarkson to The Weeknd, see the stars whose music is inspired by the legendary performer > **[Prince influenced everyone from Madonna to Beyoncé](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/artists/from-madonna-to-muse-the-bangles-to-beyonc--no-modern-pop-act-es/)** > > He was only a small man, just 5ft 2in out of his high heels, but Prince was a giant of pop whose influence was felt by every musician who followed in his wake. > **[21 Artists That Wouldn't Be The Same Without Prince](https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/14-artists-that-wouldnt-be-the-same-without-prince-767323)** > > Prince made an indelible impact on the music world. These artists are just part of his legacy. Commenting that he hasn’t had much influence on music you like is fine. Stating that he didn’t have a big influence, full stop, is just ignorant. And comments like this… > [@drad\_dog](#): > > …They need to get to me with a popular tune that I can hear. Prince needed to do that. I think he was so fluid and facile as a song writer that he lost touch with things that I really need in music. …are just 😕😕😕. He didn’t lose touch, he didn’t **need** to do anything for you. Maybe, just maybe, he wasn’t performing for you alone. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/125 "2018-04-03T17:21:09Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Thanks, I appreciate your post. I will take a listen to your suggestions. I hope you will listen to them more than once before coming to a decision about any of them. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/126 "2018-04-03T17:25:01Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Commenting that he hasn’t had much influence on music you like is fine. Stating that he didn’t have a big influence, full stop, is just ignorant. Exactly. He may not have had an influence on particular genre of music a person enjoys, but to claim he didn’t have a big influence on music today is just pretty ridiculous. Especially when you consider that you have Grammy winners and artists who quite recently had #1 albums and songs who were influenced heavily by Prince. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/127 "2018-04-03T17:27:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And of course, stuff he wrote for other artists like “Manic Monday” and “Nothing Compares 2 U.” I definitely think he had an ear for melody, but it wasn’t the most important thing for him in his music. Whoops. “Nothing Compares 2 U” was written for one of his side projects, the Family, and Manic Monday was originally written and recorded for Apollonia 6 (though apparently not released.) I thought the latter was specifically written for the Susanna Hoffs/The Bangles, but apparently it was already written before being offered to them. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/128 "2018-04-03T17:36:48Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Exactly. He may not have had an influence on particular genre of music a person enjoys, but to claim he didn’t have a big influence on music today is just pretty ridiculous. Especially when you consider that you have Grammy winners and artists who quite recently had #1 albums and songs who were influenced heavily by Prince. We know that he was influential on the music industry, and sounds that are heard. I am influenced by hip hop even though I don’t listen. It’s in the air. I wish there were songs I cared to recall in the genre. People may or may not think that the influence of anyone, Prince for instance, was _ **good** _ though. You need to believe in the “consensus” very strongly and not doubt that it is always right. I am _ **so** _ not that person. The consensus on many things is meaningless or even horrifying to me, YMMV. My point: Being influential on the music industry doesn’t really say what kind of influence it was. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/129 "2018-04-03T17:42:09Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > We know that he was influential on the music industry, and sounds that are heard. No, we don’t - look at the article in the OP to which my original point was directed to. The one where the individual says he can’t hear Prince’s “influence anywhere today”. And I’m not sure where this whole “was Prince’s influence good thing” came from, but it appears to be a massive shifting of the goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/130 "2018-04-03T17:47:36Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > My point: Being influential on the music industry doesn’t really say what kind of influence it was. Well that is an individual value judgement that everyone can make for themselves. How would you suggest quantifying this in a way that actually leads to an answer that is applicable to anyone aside from just yourself? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/131 "2018-04-03T17:50:01Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > We know that he was influential on the music industry, and sounds that are heard. I am influenced by hip hop even though I don’t listen. It’s in the air. I wish there were songs I cared to recall in the genre. > > People may or may not think that the influence of anyone, Prince for instance, was _ **good** _ though. You need to believe in the “consensus” very strongly and not doubt that it is always right. I am _ **so** _ not that person. The consensus on many things is meaningless or even horrifying to me, YMMV. > > My point: Being influential on the music industry doesn’t really say what kind of influence it was. No, folks like me are not Tools of Conventional Wisdom. The point is that with some artists, there “is” a strong outstanding POV about them. Prince, for instance is deeply respected by peers and critics. Wouldn’t it be appropriate to start the discussion from that point? “I understand how Prince is regarded; I have these questions about / issues with that…” Saying you find him Problematic makes this about the OP. So the thread lurches along. Think about how you approach a topic. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/132 "2018-04-03T17:51:23Z")
One of my favorite musical groups is Wendy and Lisa. They sre awesome musicians in their own right, but they got their start with Prince. And they frequently talk about the mentorship he provided not just for them, but other female performers. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/133 "2018-04-03T18:23:26Z")
> [@HelenTroy](#): > > This is a long-winded way of saying it isn’t easy to pigeon hole Prince and then act like that’s a concern. The man wrote and performed all kinds of music and excelled in each. > And to whoever tried to equate this idea there is a lack of emotional resonance from Prince that is found in Bowie, I will repeat my earlier observation - older, white, and male. Bowie was awesome, but his death had none of the profound effect in the circles I run in like Prince did. I was lucky enough to see the man live in concert and there was no equal in terms of performance and sheer joy in that crowd to watch him do his thing. Prince did excel in pretty much every kind of thing he performed, and anyone who doubts that has just not seen & heard the evidence. But. I know it’s subjective, but to me, Prince’s music gives the impression that he doesn’t have a gut-level commitment to whatever he’s doing at that moment. To me, it feels like it’s calculated for effect, and impersonal. I don’t enjoy skilled-but-impersonal, unless the skill is wildly over-the-top in-your-face long instrumental solos. Prince was not (for example) Jaco Pastorius. Being hard to pigeonhole is not the same as lacking a personal point of view. When someone can’t be pigeonholed, it’s because they are themselves and don’t have to do the same thing over and over. It’s possible to fake “you can’t pigeonhole me”, by doing a bunch of semi-random things that you don’t really identify with. I fault Bowie in the same way, but a lot less. It’s subjective. Maybe my whole point of view is just not suited to this style. Maybe I secretly want every performer to be the earnest singer/songwriter. But I don’t really think so. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/134 "2018-04-03T18:40:27Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Prince did excel in pretty much every kind of thing he performed, and anyone who doubts that has just not seen & heard the evidence. > > But. > > I know it’s subjective, but to me, Prince’s music gives the impression that he doesn’t have a gut-level commitment to whatever he’s doing at that moment. To me, it feels like it’s calculated for effect, and impersonal. I don’t enjoy skilled-but-impersonal, unless the skill is wildly over-the-top in-your-face long instrumental solos. Prince was not (for example) Jaco Pastorius. > > Being hard to pigeonhole is not the same as lacking a personal point of view. When someone can’t be pigeonholed, it’s because they are themselves and don’t have to do the same thing over and over. It’s possible to fake “you can’t pigeonhole me”, by doing a bunch of semi-random things that you don’t really identify with. > > I fault Bowie in the same way, but a lot less. It’s subjective. > > Maybe my whole point of view is just not suited to this style. Maybe I secretly want every performer to be the earnest singer/songwriter. But I don’t really think so. It’s possible to fake it but generally that doesn’t garner widespread accolades from peers and critics. Prince spent his life creating music in a variety of styles, for himself and others, often deciding to hide away his creations forever. Maybe you just need bigger or different pigeonholes. Maybe to him music was like a puzzle and it’s not fair to say he never really committed to jigsaw or the word jumble, he was committed to the idea of a puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/135 "2018-04-03T18:45:12Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > No, folks like me are not Tools of Conventional Wisdom. The point is that with some artists, there “is” a strong outstanding POV about them. Prince, for instance is deeply respected by peers and critics. > > Wouldn’t it be appropriate to start the discussion from that point? “I understand how Prince is regarded; I have these questions about / issues with that…” > > Saying you find him Problematic makes this about the OP. So the thread lurches along. Think about how you approach a topic. I didn’t start the topic, but it can be what you want to say, no matter how it started. You set the scene. You seem very highly motivated to enforce some kind of CW, as I read your posts going back. “You have to recognize the public recognition of something as being evidence of it’s quality.” But I don’t agree with that. I don’t understand most of the last two lines, but why do you care about that? If you are a Prince fan why don’t you show up and give your evidence and not complain that people aren’t respectful enough of CW? Isn’t that just needing a safe space? It sounds like the forum is behaving as it should if someone says someone is problematic and people show up to discuss whether they are full of it or not. I don’t see what there is to scold. But Wordman, the thing I get is that you are placing prince with the beatles or the stones in making comparisons, for the purposes of this thread. He may actually be better in some cosmic sense, in eternity, but there is a wishful thinking part of this, for you, in placing him with those people, commercially, culturally, creatively, musically in order to argue he needs to be in the pantheon next to them. I can’t see any reason why he is part of that pantheon. It is not his fault. But it’s not my fault either. And there is no blame to be assigned based on this. If you need to see popular music as a steady state unrolling process where all things equal out in the end, there is a requisite amount of excellent work at any given time, which may be completely equivalenced, and is a zero sum game, then OK, prince is like the beatles for comparisons. But failing that, he isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/136 "2018-04-03T20:10:59Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I didn’t start the topic, but it can be what you want to say, no matter how it started. You set the scene. You seem very highly motivated to enforce some kind of CW, as I read your posts going back. “You have to recognize the public recognition of something as being evidence of it’s quality.” But I don’t agree with that. > > I don’t understand most of the last two lines, but why do you care about that? If you are a Prince fan why don’t you show up and give your evidence and not complain that people aren’t respectful enough of CW? Isn’t that just needing a safe space? > > It sounds like the forum is behaving as it should if someone says someone is problematic and people show up to discuss whether they are full of it or not. I don’t see what there is to scold. > > But Wordman, the thing I get is that you are placing prince with the beatles or the stones in making comparisons, for the purposes of this thread. He may actually be better in some cosmic sense, in eternity, but there is a wishful thinking part of this, for you, in placing him with those people, commercially, culturally, creatively, musically in order to argue he needs to be in the pantheon next to them. I can’t see any reason why he is part of that pantheon. It is not his fault. But it’s not my fault either. And there is no blame to be assigned based on this. > > If you need to see popular music as a steady state unrolling process where all things equal out in the end, there is a requisite amount of excellent work at any given time, which may be completely equivalenced, and is a zero sum game, then OK, prince is like the beatles for comparisons. But failing that, he isn’t. Dude, Prince is Prince. In the last thread, I explained various aspect of his musicianship, song writing etc. You, in that case, said “I still don’t see it.” Again - that’s totally cool as your opinion. But I am not going to bend over backwards to prove anything to you or the OP. It doesn’t matter what _I_ think - Prince’s reputation is that yes, he is up there with the Beatles and Stones and is the Duke Ellington of the back half of the 20th century. That doesn’t require proof - it is a simple Google. I Googled “Prince was Duke Ellington”: and got this from a Musicology professor in Texas: [Prince was Jimi Hendrix, Muddy Waters, James Brown and Duke Ellington, all rolled into one](https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2016/04/21/prince-was-jimi-hendrix-muddy-waters-james-brown-and-duke-ellington-all-rolled-into-one) > [@](#): > > As someone who is a specialist in American music and African-American popular music, I can say that Prince Rogers Nelson was one of the most influential musicians of the last part of the 20th and first part of the 21st century. > > How great was he? > > I would put him in the same league as James Brown and Miles Davis, both of whom are profound influences on his music and both of whom admired Prince’s music exceptionally. I would rank him with George Clinton of Parliament-Funkadelic as someone who transformed the sound of African-American and popular music, and as a result the sound of global pop music. If that is his reputation, then come to the topic with that in mind. If you think it is over-rated, say so. Don’t describe him as Problematic or attempt to frame “I just don’t like his music” as something profound. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/137 "2018-04-03T20:22:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s possible to fake it but generally that doesn’t garner widespread accolades from peers and critics. Prince spent his life creating music in a variety of styles, for himself and others, often deciding to hide away his creations forever. Maybe you just need bigger or different pigeonholes. Maybe to him music was like a puzzle and it’s not fair to say he never really committed to jigsaw or the word jumble, he was committed to the idea of a puzzle. I think this missed my point. I don’t get the feeling that Prince did his own thing, at least not mostly. I don’t think listeners usually received the kind of music Prince really would have committed himself to, because I don’t think he ever did that for any length of time. I think the majority of his very best stuff consisted of calculated shots at sales and popularity. That’s how it all feels to me. Like he treated his own music as manipulated image for sale, instead of as his own music. I’m not saying the manipulated image was not well done - I’m saying I don’t like the manipulated-image feel, it turns me off. Hey, ETA: Listening to Prince, for me, is like watching that too-good-but-not-perfect CGI in a movie, where it creeps you out to see something too close to real. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/138 "2018-04-03T23:08:44Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I think this missed my point. I don’t get the feeling that Prince did his own thing, at least not mostly. I don’t think listeners usually received the kind of music Prince really would have committed himself to, because I don’t think he ever did that for any length of time. I think the majority of his very best stuff consisted of calculated shots at sales and popularity. That’s how it all feels to me. Like he treated his own music as manipulated image for sale, instead of as his own music. With all due respect, I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. Look at the guy’s complete [discography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_albums_discography). The vast majority of his songs never made the charts, but he nonetheless kept churning out obscure album after even more obscure album. Do you really think the guy lost the knack for coming up with hit records in his later years, despite his amazing composing abilities? Or do you think there’s a chance as a middle-aged guy, he stopped caring so much about Billboard charts and entertaining the average listener, but rather chose to create more for himself and his hardest-core fans? If Prince had been any other kind of artist, he would have thrown in the towel in the mid 90s and been yet another performer who does “Free Bird” at concerts so the fans would never forget the good ole days. But one of the criticisms that Prince frequently got is that he tended to avoid performing his radio 80s hits. He didn’t cater to the most casual of fans, but to the fans who really dug him. He hated that the masses were flatlined on his days with the Revolution, and I don’t blame him one bit. A lot of his best stuff didn’t happen with the Revolution. The stuff he did with the Revolution was more pop rock than R&B/funk, and this is really where his heart was. Prince worked so hard developing hits in the 80s because–like anyone in the prime of their career–that’s when he had bills to pay and a reputation to build. So of course he spent those years appealing to the masses and doing what he had to do to stay relevant. But once he became a rock star, he went from being a very committed artist to an obsessively committed artist. Only someone who has not studied his career would say otherwise. I mean, I don’t mind hearing detractive opinions about Prince or his work. I actually have my own. But when these opinions come from obviously uninformed sources that are nonetheless expressed so self-assuredly, I just can’t go along. I don’t understand why ya’ll can’t do some independent research before sharing all these not-so-profound notions you’ve constructed. The guy’s discography clearly rebuts everything you’ve said about him. So come up with another reason to criticize him. This “He wasn’t a committed artist” stuff is problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/139 "2018-04-03T23:25:25Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > “Problematic” definitely doesn’t mean overrated, it means there are problems with the artist beyond the music. I actually defined what I meant, so scroll up is all I can say… > [@](#): > > I might be willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt that he simply used the wrong word, I was trying to use an inoffensive, non-incendiary word. But I get it: there’s nothing you can say that’s negative without people taking huge offense and twisting it into something offensive. > [@](#): > > but his later posts revealed that he indeed has problems with Prince beyond the music alone. That poisoned the well and makes discussion of if he’s overrated more difficult. Not really. It just turned into SJW-style wild extrapolations that I’m a homophobe because I find Prince’s sexual shtick unappealing. And I’m a misogynist because people read the article I quoted (fine) and decided that the author was a misogynist based on _a part I did not quote._ After all, if I quote, for example, Ben Shapiro, I am basically responsible for anything he ever said anywhere. I am not allowed to quote something I agree with and have it end there. I become an avatar of the alt-right. > [@](#): > > Comments that he’s only popular because he’s black don’t help, and neither do suggestions that even though he’s popular with women and black people, it doesn’t _really_ count because appealing to straight white males is the most important thing. Well, now you’re talking about the words of someone else, but I might as well be accused of racism at this point too, as I am a straight white male, which has been amply pointed out. I don’t really have an issue with Prince beyond the music. And I would include his stage/video persona as being “in the music,” and I didn’t/don’t like it, but I actually found him somewhat likeable and vulnerable and real in _Purple Rain,_ which I would call an interesting and enjoyable misfire of a movie. He doesn’t seem like he was a bad guy in real life, just a little odd and unapproachable. I really have been talking about the music. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/140 "2018-04-03T23:32:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > With all due respect, I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. Look at the guy’s complete [discography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_albums_discography). The vast majority of his songs never made the charts, but he nonetheless kept churning out obscure album after even more obscure album. Do you really think the guy lost the knack for coming up with hit records in his later years, despite his amazing composing abilities? Or do you think there’s a chance as a middle-aged guy, he stopped caring so much about Billboard charts and entertaining the average listener, but rather chose to create more for himself and his hardest-core fans? > > If Prince had been any other kind of artist, he would have thrown in the towel in the mid 90s and been yet another performer who does “Free Bird” at concerts so the fans would never forget the good ole days. But one of the criticisms that Prince frequently got is that he tended to avoid performing his radio 80s hits. He didn’t cater to the most casual of fans, but to the fans who really dug him. He hated that the masses were flatlined on his days with the Revolution, and I don’t blame him one bit. A lot of his best stuff didn’t happen with the Revolution. The stuff he did with the Revolution was more pop rock than R&B/funk, and this is really where his heart was. Prince worked so hard developing hits in the 80s because–like anyone in the prime of their career–that’s when he had bills to pay and a reputation to build. So of course he spent those years appealing to the masses and doing what he had to do to stay relevant. But once he became a rock star, he went from being a very committed artist to an obsessively committed artist. Only someone who has not studied his career would say otherwise. > > I mean, I don’t mind hearing detractive opinions about Prince or his work. I actually have my own. But when these opinions come from obviously uninformed sources that are nonetheless expressed so self-assuredly, I just can’t go along. I don’t understand why ya’ll can’t do some independent research before sharing all these not-so-profound notions you’ve constructed. The guy’s discography clearly rebuts everything you’ve said about him. So come up with another reason to criticize him. This “He wasn’t a committed artist” stuff is problematic. I have already said twice that Prince was highly skilled. I have also said that I don’t like his music and that I’m not convinced. I am one hundred percent correct. (My comments say nothing about you.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571.md?page=8)