# Prince: I find him to be a problematic artist **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 1, 2018, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571 "2018-04-01T04:38:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/141 "2018-04-03T23:32:46Z")
Being an iconoclast is hard when carrying that cross. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/142 "2018-04-03T23:42:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t understand why ya’ll can’t do some independent research before sharing all these not-so-profound notions you’ve constructed. The guy’s discography clearly rebuts everything you’ve said about him. So come up with another reason to criticize him. This “He wasn’t a committed artist” stuff is problematic. See, I think this is bad thinking when it comes to Cafe Society and the Dope in general. We are required to present doctoral theses here in order to earn the right to speak. It totally defeats the purpose of the forum in my opinion. The second point is that it will never be good enough. I tried to write my OP carefully and politely. People still took offense. Someone could dot all the i’s and still be trashed here and be treated like an idiot. It demotivates anyone from sharing any thought except the completely innocuous. People say the board skews old, male, and white. We can’t see each other here, right? What if the person getting trashed here is someone young who wants to venture an opinion and engage in some polite debate? I think how I was treated here isn’t going going to attract many young, non-white folks, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/143 "2018-04-03T23:50:00Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I have already said twice that Prince was highly skilled. I have also said that I don’t like his music and that I’m not convinced. I am one hundred percent correct. (My comments say nothing about you.) You aren’t convinced of what? That Prince was a committed artist? Can you name a highly regarded, popular musician who was as prolific as Prince, with a career as long as his, who meets your standard of “very committed”. Perhaps that will help us to understand your “framework”, to borrow a word from **Aeschines**. Do you think your distaste for his music could be possibly keeping you from seeing that you’re holding him to a ridiculous standard? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/144 "2018-04-03T23:52:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You aren’t convinced of what? That Prince was a committed artist? Can you name a highly regarded, popular musician who was as prolific as Prince, with a career as long as his, who meets your standard of “very committed”. Perhaps that will help us to understand your “framework”, to borrow a word from **Aeschines**. > > Do you think your distaste for his music could be possibly keeping you from seeing that you’re holding him to a ridiculous standard? It’s his style, not his work ethic. His style feels out of place on him, to me. Like seeing a man who has nice clothes but they don’t fit. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/145 "2018-04-03T23:52:43Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > See, shit like this makes it kinda pointless to post on the Dope unless one is really careful about how one posts. > > Personally, I never drop into a thread to attack someone because they have an opinion I don’t agree with. You’re not even a Prince fan, presumably not interested in this topic then, but you just had to thread-shit a bit. Wonderful. If this thread was supposed to be for Prince fans only, no one has done more to shit on it than you. While not a fan, I actually would have been interested in a thoughtful examination of why Prince might have been problematic as an artist. I was disappointed to discover that neither your OP nor the linked article lived up to the thread title. The OP is basically just a list of things you dislike about Prince, with no deeper reason for any of it than “I don’t like this.” I don’t like Prince’s music either, but I don’t expect other people to find that interesting. It’s certainly not a “problem” for Prince fans to solve. The James Delingpole article is “I don’t like this” plus “Prince sucked because he made music for _girls_ and was some kind of queer.” While the latter wasn’t present in your OP, you went on to echo Delingpole’s sexism and homophobia in later posts. I’m glad the SDMB isn’t the kind of place where that sort of thing goes unchallenged just because it’s someone’s “opinion”. If you can’t handle that, maybe you _should_ stop posting here. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/146 "2018-04-03T23:58:36Z")
Dude, I’m an old white male. You didn’t introduce the topic carefully and were suddenly offended. You start off with an angle towards Problematic, whatever the fuck that means, and then anchor your OP on the quotes of an _utter_ twit. Get real. You have not demonstrated that you have looked into how Prince is regarded, at all, and wish to present your POV as at the same level as peers and academics and shit. Sorry if choose not to accept that premise. “Dope Rules,” to me, means approach the topic with respect, demonstrate you tried to check it out, and make real knowledge your agenda. You have a different agenda, but choose not to own it. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/147 "2018-04-04T00:08:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > The James Delingpole article is “I don’t like this” plus “Prince sucked because he made music for _girls_ and was some kind of queer.” While the latter wasn’t present in your OP, you went on to echo Delingpole’s sexism and homophobia in later posts. Feel free to cite anything I said that was sexist. I already defended myself against the charge of homophobia. > [@](#): > > I’m glad the SDMB isn’t the kind of place where that sort of thing goes unchallenged just because it’s someone’s “opinion”. If you can’t handle that, maybe you _should_ stop posting here. Well, you’re not seeing the point. ANYTHING can be twisted into offense. So if personal attacks are allowed, the incentive will be for anyone who sees their favorite artists, etc., being attacked to get personal. Hell, people were dropping in just to attack. That makes for a shitty forum in which people don’t feel free to be negative. The argument, “Yeah, well, but YOU deserved it this time!” (if that’s what you are thinking) isn’t an argument. Because people who like to engage in personal attacks (and must I argue that there are many such people online?) will always find the justification they need. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/148 "2018-04-04T00:10:13Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > “Dope Rules,” to me, means approach the topic with respect, demonstrate you tried to check it out, and make real knowledge your agenda. You have a different agenda, but choose not to own it. Actually, there _are_ rules against personal attacks and threadshitting as far as I know. Mods are pretty AWOL in this case, however. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/149 "2018-04-04T00:12:42Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Actually, there _are_ rules against personal attacks and threadshitting as far as I know. Mods are pretty AWOL in this case, however. I fail to see how I am threadshitting. You stated a premise. I am choosing to fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/150 "2018-04-04T00:13:27Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > While not a fan, Why are you not a fan? Just curious. > [@](#): > > I actually would have been interested in a thoughtful examination of why Prince might have been problematic as an artist. I was disappointed to discover that neither your OP nor the linked article lived up to the thread title. The OP is basically just a list of things you dislike about Prince, with no deeper reason for any of it than “I don’t like this.” I don’t like Prince’s music either, but I don’t expect other people to find that interesting. It’s certainly not a “problem” for Prince fans to solve. Then why participate if you didn’t have anything interesting to say _about the topic I wanted to talk about_? Is there really a need for people to go “meta” on a post and talk about how the OP is an idiot instead of talking about what the OP wants to talk about? I mean, is that why the Dope exists, and is doing so conducive to discussion here? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/151 "2018-04-04T00:14:20Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > See, I think this is bad thinking when it comes to Cafe Society and the Dope in general. We are required to present doctoral theses here in order to earn the right to speak. It totally defeats the purpose of the forum in my opinion. I have negative opinions about just about everything and everyone. Thing is, I know most of those opinions are uninformed, uninteresting to anyone besides me, and/or not at all based on any kind of intellectual framework. Like, I don’t like Tom Petty’s stuff (except I really like "Last Dance with Mary Jane). You will never see me authoring a thread like this about him, though. Not only do I not have any objective reasons to dislike his work, but I know good and well I don’t know enough about him or his style of music to evaluate his artistry. I just know the songs that get overplayed on the radio. So when I see someone who seems to be ignoring the fact that his own opinions are uninformed, uninteresting, and/or not at all based on any kind of intellectual framework (though he believes that they are), then why wouldn’t I find that cringey? You seem to think you’re not only entitled to express any opinion you want, however you want it, but that we not equally entitled to critique you in response. What, it’s okay for you to diss Prince, but we can’t critique you for dissing Prince when your exposure to him is obviously quite limited? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/152 "2018-04-04T00:14:46Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > I fail to see how I am threadshitting. You stated a premise. I am choosing to fight ignorance. You were not necessarily threadshitting. The people who came in _only_ to attack and not comment on the topic were threadshitting. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/153 "2018-04-04T00:17:03Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Why are you not a fan? Just curious. > > Then why participate if you didn’t have anything interesting to say _about the topic I wanted to talk about_? > > Is there really a need for people to go “meta” on a post and talk about how the OP is an idiot instead of talking about what the OP wants to talk about? I mean, is that why the Dope exists, and is doing so conducive to discussion here? In case you haven’t figured it out: _lots_ of folks either don’t like, or don’t get, Prince and would probably really enjoy a thread where his stuff could be discussed openly. You had a chance to set up that thread. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/154 "2018-04-04T00:18:05Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > It’s his style, not his work ethic. His style feels out of place on him, to me. Like seeing a man who has nice clothes but they don’t fit. I find that interesting. To me, his music completely suits him to a T. He seems like an eccentric guy who oozes sexuality, and his music reflects that. And then he found spirituality and God and all that, and that was reflected in his music (_The Rainbow Children_.) I feel his music describes who he is at the time he has been making it. I don’t get the sense there is anything inauthentic about it. There may be some exaggerated theatre to it, but, from all account, dude was pretty “different” IRL, so maybe it’s not much of an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/155 "2018-04-04T00:18:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So when I see someone who seems to be ignoring the fact that his own opinions are uninformed, uninteresting, and/or not at all based on any kind of intellectual framework (though he believes that they are), then why wouldn’t I find that cringey? Find it cringey all you want. But we should have the right to “shoot the shit” here on the Dope without being personally attacked. And it’s actually explicitly against the rules, the last time I checked. > [@](#): > > You seem to think you’re not only entitled to express any opinion you want, however you want it, but that we not equally entitled to critique you in response. What, it’s okay for you to diss Prince, but we can’t critique you for dissing Prince when your exposure to him is obviously quite limited? Yes, that’s exactly what I think. Because, according to your logic, one is not allowed to be negative in Cafe Society. You’re saying, outright, that if someone disses something, it’s fine to shoot back personally at the poster. That is pure poison to any type of forum like this. I’m actually rather shocked that you would suggest that is the right way to handle things. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/156 "2018-04-04T00:19:57Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > In case you haven’t figured it out: _lots_ of folks either don’t like, or don’t get, Prince and would probably really enjoy a thread where his stuff could be discussed openly. You had a chance to set up that thread. OK, so you’re saying that, if someone doesn’t do a good enough job of that kind of thing should be personally attacked. There should be a pile-on. But if someone does do a good enough job, then there shouldn’t be one. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/157 "2018-04-04T00:20:11Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Find it cringey all you want. But we should have the right to “shoot the shit” here on the Dope without being personally attacked. And it’s actually explicitly against the rules, the last time I checked. > > Yes, that’s exactly what I think. Because, according to your logic, one is not allowed to be negative in Cafe Society. You’re saying, outright, that if someone disses something, it’s fine to shoot back personally at the poster. That is pure poison to any type of forum like this. I’m actually rather shocked that you would suggest that is the right way to handle things. Sorry, not if you seem to have done no homework. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/158 "2018-04-04T00:22:47Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Sorry, not if you seem to have done no homework. OK, so you’re saying that personal attacks are fine on the Dope if someone deserves it? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/159 "2018-04-04T00:23:54Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > OK, so you’re saying that, if someone doesn’t do a good enough job of that kind of thing should be personally attacked. There should be a pile-on. But if someone does do a good enough job, then there shouldn’t be one. To be clear: YES, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. Not the personally attacked part, but how about the “please demonstrate you’ve done a modicum of research in the topic first “. To be clear: I would _love_ to discuss Prince. Lots of stuff he did didn’t work for me - did you see the cover of Lovesexy? But you have to frame the topic better. ETA: how am I personally attacking you? I am pointing out that your POV doesn’t reflect research or an appreciation of what’s out there. At all. That’s an issue, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571/160 "2018-04-04T00:25:30Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > But you have to frame the topic better. OK, but if people frame topics poorly, then they deserve to be personally attacked? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-i-find-him-to-be-a-problematic-artist/811571.md?page=9)