I’m really trying hard to give your opinions a fair turn in this thread, but you keep tacking on comments like this one.
The only one who keeps harping on his race is you. Everyone else you’re arguing with is focused on his artistry. Have you stopped and considered what this makes you look like?
And why, for the love of God, are you using a Led Zeppelin song to argue Prince lacked originality? I mean, even if they do share some elements (and I actually see your point, believe it or not), the irony is too much to handle. One song out of his entire discography is bound to have shades in common with another song. Statistical probabilities kick in at a certain point.
I hadn’t noticed this on my previous skim through the thread. Aeschines, accusations of trolling are not permitted outside of the BBQ Pit. If you believe that someone is trolling, or otherwise breaking the rules, then you should report the offender and let us take care of it. This is an official Warning for this accusation of trolling.
So to be clear: there are certain types of song structures you don’t like. This song happens to have that type of structure. Okay, that song is not for you. Be done.
Instead, we get Detailed Unpackings™ where you tell us the Song According to You. And its typically rife with subtext, where you are dismissive, or invoke references you really don’t seem to understand (hearing you tell a couple of Black women about African American music is always a hoot). And if anyone pushes back, or suggest you do a bit more research, you bite back hard and offer the silliest psychoanalysis about the other folks’ motivations - an attempt at an ad hominem attack that fails.
I will stop discussing this here and post anything further in the Pit thread. You know the one.
I’m not poking my head into a thread. I am participating in a thread which we already know is about his putative problematicness. The thread isn’t a paean or tribute to Prince. Right or wrong?
I don’t mean to argue. But if we are going to talk about Prince songs you need to hear what someone says about it for a few posts and let it sit. Why do you care if it’s not you? Are we in a forum? You can’t require that someone listening likes him. There is an anti intellectual need to rail against divergent opinions when they are stated here that I don’t think is acknowledged.
It is irrational to expect tributes to your favorite people all the time on a free speech forum, so why is this a constant refrain? This is not a fan site, for Prince, Petty, or anyone else. Threads seem to have purposes and this one is for “problematic” so I think I’m working within that. If others do I predict that there will be a lot of music discussed.
I only listened to one song. I found it derivative. Why get excited about it now when I haven’t even got to a second one? You are not a Prince afficionado and yet you don’t seem to want to hear anyone discourse on Princes problematicness, even in a thread devoted to that subject. Why not? That’s where fighting ignorance starts.
Sorry the line threw you off me. I don’t think of it the same way. I harp on music only.
I’m listening to the suggestions in this thread. Each one will be another song cited to prove his worth, and I want to deal with them separately to see what’s there. You can’t blame me for cherry picking any of these. They are cites of his excellence by fans.
I’m looking to see if there is support for him being up with Ellington or Beatles, or failing that, with Smokey Robinson, or Otis Redding or someone. but also to see if his influences are discernible. Both Prince and I love Todd Rundgren. Maybe it will be in there for me.
Look. I’ve given you my impressions and why I think the songs are interesting. I understand you’re bored by it, but you also seem to be a bit bemused as to what others hear in it. I’ve been doing my best to be fair and give you reasons as a listener and musician what I find interesting in his music. I don’t feel like I’ve been shutting down conversation. I’ve also been pointing you to other songs and albums of his that I find worthwhile, in the hopes that we may have some overlap and common ground. There’s no way you’re not going to enjoy “When You Were Mine.” I’m putting some effort here to talk to you and assume you’re at least trying to be open-minded in this thread. I’ve been patient (I think), and I’ve been sincere. I’m doing my best, too, to fight ignorance by engaging in this thread, even though I’m just a relatively casual listener of his music, because what I know does move and does make me smile.
I’m baffled. Care to cite about my attempt to tell black people about black music? We are anonymous here.
I will talk about the music and not projections and thread strategems. If you think I’m not just reread me.
You don’t want me to point out the two chord vamp of the song as wanting and boring because I’m a jerk. Got it. You got to have intellectual priorities if you’re fighting ignorance…
So music criticism is limited to nice thoughts? If someone disagrees with you about something they should just go off and not darken your door? I really think you are confused about what a forum is supposed to do and be, and who you are in it. You should not invite people not to participate (as you do above to me) because you don’t like their message.
We are all here giving impressions. I appreciate what you did. What did you expect to happen next that didn’t? How did I not play along like you envisioned? I only listened to that one and there is a general freakout here that I didn’t say nice things about it. How is it going to go if I try to listen to more? It sounds like that might be that actual “problematic” thing that the OP was about. You cannot criticize Prince because he is special. How special? All threads on Prince must be positive. If it’s about how bad he is, you must pile on the OP and then crush anyone who comes in to share.
That’s not really it. What it is is that sometimes I feel that you’re dismissive when you write things like “do you have to be a believer to get it?” It doesn’t smack to me of an honest attempt to understand. It somehow feels like you think those of us who appreciate the music are either rabid superfans who would even love Prince’s purple poop, or are otherwise somehow “brainwashed.” There’s really very little other way for me to read that kind of statement. I’m saying, well, no, that’s not the case. I still have “The Cross” ringing in my head after just a few listens for the first time last night. To me, that’s an incredibly successful hook. It doesn’t thrill you. That’s fine. Nobody is saying it isn’t. But you can surely accept that maybe some people react to other aspects of the music that you don’t. It doesn’t strike me like you’re really trying to understand why people like his music. Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you’re not really interested in why others like him.
monstro and you with the face have both discussed that they are Black women. I can’t recall if in this thread, but in others you have been in.
You are welcome to say you don’t like a two chord vamp. You are NOT welcome to say that it is a Bad Thing™. That is what comes off as jerkish. Above, you say that a two chord vamp IS wanting and boring. Not that YOU FIND IT wanting and boring, but that it IS. Your words.
I guess to me it’s more that I guess as a sometimes musician and always listener, I’m more interested in finding out what fans of genres like and what makes them tick. Like, I don’t know shit from shinola in genres like black metal or Tuvan throat singing or mainstream country or K-pop, but I am interested in what listeners of those genres find interesting and important in their music. It may not resonate with me personally because of my musical heritage, but I still find it more interesting to pick the brain of someone who is into that genre rather than come from the attitude that “your music is shit/overrated, prove to me it isn’t.” If that’s not what you’re doing, forgive me, but that certainly is the impression you make. I mean, come on, as someone who is a Beatles fan, you’ve certainly come across that type of attitude.
Well, I would just like drag dog to reconcile knowing that pulykamell is not a superfan but still asking him “do you have to be a believer to get it?”. How does that make any sense? It’s like you’re undecided in which way to be dismissive of his opinion.
And as someone who is a super fan of neither Led Zeppelin or Prince, I find the “Cross” ripping off “Ramble on” to be baffling. Seeing as how LZ is kinda famous for ripping off others, it’s a little eye roll worthy regardless.
Yeah, still waiting. This is your big chance, drad dog: is a two-chord vamp-based song a valid song structure that others may like and think can be used to make great, artistic music?
Flipping heck… the Zeppelin accousitc part of Ramble On is very busy with many grace notes pull-offs etc. It is not a “two chord vamp”.
the Cross is very different.
The Cross, is a plain-plaintive spiritual call to Christianity (sigh) -Zep wise- Robert Plant does not do this (nwt IMToD “Oh my Jesus…”) lordy knows what Percy’s real beliefs are but maybe we could ask Kate Bush (there must be a club?).
A TV show (UK) recently had a choir (&band) performing he Cross. Needless to say it was watered down completely by having a whole choir and orchestra included. Works much better with the (purple) man and his works.
drad dog and I have experienced the same type of responses and we seem to share the same perspective on how a forum about music (among other things) should work. This ain’t it, in my opinion. This is an example:
There is not a substantial difference in this case. It’s a truism of good writing that, when writing, say, an opinion piece for a magazine, you don’t have to say, “I think,” or, “It’s my opinion,” before every statement that is obviously an opinion.
Similarly,
I think this can fairly be called oversensitivity for two reasons. First, this is a forum for discussion in which people should be free to speak with some level of frankness and confidence, without having to preface everything with “this is just my personal opinion, but…” Second, no one has been “trashing” Prince or his songs. drad dog and I have been operating at the level of what I would consider polite discourse.
If you disagree, you have the right to say so, but again consider what I have said about incentive systems and their effect on the forum. Do we really want to incent people to perceive posters as being impolite when they are careful enough and make every difference of opinion about the poster’s fine-tuned use of polite language instead of the topic at hand? Because that is what this thread has devolved into.
That you’ve stated subjective viewpoints matter-of-factly is not the only critique concerning your post. It’s that you have done this and then gotten upset when people essentially call your opinion unimpressive and “problematic”, just as you’ve done Prince!
The question is why can you not move past this? It is not clear what you really want. You see Prince as “problematic” because you don’t like his music. Ok. Peel back all the pseudo-intellectual analyses and that’s the bottom line. The people challenging you either like his music and/or think your opinions/assertions are shallow and weak…and what else is there to say? We can’t debate the merits of your dislike on technical grounds because you aren’t making technical arguments. You’re saying stuff that “Prince tried to be sexy but it didn’t work for me as straight male.” This kind of sharing naturally provokes a “so what” response because it presumes we either care about your personal feelings about Prince or are under the crazy impression that everyone in existence found him arousing. Neither are true.
No one is trashing you either. We’re simply critiquing you in the way you want to critique Prince. Why is it acceptable for you to opine something like:
But it’s somehow intolerably impolite to say your opinions come across as laughably superficial as one might expect if one’s understanding of Prince’s music starts and ends with Purple Rain? To me, these kind of opinions are both fair game. I have no philosophical objections to anyone saying what you have, even though I disagree with it and can’t even remotely imagine starting a thread like this for an artist I dislike. My position is simply that when say debateable shit, expect a debate.
Who has accused you of being impolite? I believe arrogant and pretentious have been the adjectives offered. As well as uninformed and biased.
You seem more interested in complaining about politeness than the topic at hand. Not sure if you see the irony.
"that musical dead zone just before acid house arrived and dance music saved the world. "
Uh, wut? I don’t know if this is UK-specific or something, but that sounds like an odd very niche opinion. Prince has a lot of influence and I think some of his stuff sounds dated but a lot of it is timeless, and not because it had no influence or imitators.
So I listened to “The Cross” (live version on YouTube, presumably one others have mentioned) and “Ramble On” by Led Zep.
I have probably heard “Ramble On” before, but–hot damn. What a masterpiece. A+ tune.
I would also say that drad dog has a good ear for having perceived the relationship between the two songs. I would agree, however, with the posters who have said that all they really share is a chord structure. I would not accuse Prince of ripping off LZ in this case. Is it possible that Prince heard that song, it stuck in his head, and he later on wrote his own tune in the same structure? Yes. But even if that were the case, the songs are quite different.
My feeling about “The Cross”: not bad. Which is how I feel about a lot of Prince’s work. I used the word “problematic” at the beginning because the guy did not suck but still doesn’t end up satisfying me a lot of the time. The lyrics to “The Cross” are stuff I don’t need. Again, it’s not clear what Prince’s belief system was or how he related the sexy stuff to being a Jehovah’s Witness, etc. The music is decent. The performance is excellent. Nothing I would “trash,” but I can live without hearing it again.
