See, I think the issue is that everyone gives Prince his due, but Michael always gets short shrift. There’s always a debate over his musicality because he didn’t play an instrument, and questions about his songwriting chops. Just a nitpicking, WordMan, Quincy Jones produced, but never co-wrote or wrote for Michael. I suspect you were referring to his producing, though. Michael’s best songs were his own, though Rod Temperton wrote some real crackers for him - Rock With You, Burn This Disco Out, Off the Wall, Thriller… Not bad for a lad straight out of Cleethorpes.
If you were around in the heyday of these two, you were lucky.
Hearing Michael talk about the songwriting process is amazing.I believe him when he refers to it as a divine process that happens through him.
Maybe, but for me, this thread (and the few links in it) convinced me that prince’s new material has the occasional GREAT stuff in it that’s at least pretty much on par with with his classics.
I really haven’t seen anything as good from Jackson in the last 20 years (I think most of his late hits where amazingly badly sentimental), and prince was much better than Jackson even 20 years ago.
That is entirely worth experiencing, shaky camera and all. Who is she? Nice vox.
**olives **- I really want to take a shot at this, but am not sure where to start. Here goes:
Musicianship - Prince is one of the best guitarists, bassists, keyboardists and vocalists around. That level of competence across so many instruments - let’s call vox an instrument for this purpose - is just, like, whoa. His big millenium party DVD - Rave unto the Year 2000 - features him engaging Larry Graham in a bass duel. Larry Graham!!! He was the bassist in Sly and the Family Stone - he *INVENTED *pop/slap/funk bass. If there is a Mount Rushmore of Bassists, Larry is on it, okay? And you know what, Prince *totally *holds his own in the give and take. Same with guitar - the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony is normally a dog’s breakfast - a bit of a mish-mash and not nearly as entertaining as you’d expect. But when George Harrison had passed and was getting a tribute, his son Dhani, Tom Petty, Jeff Lynne a few others played While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Prince took the solo at the very end (around 3:37) - and killed (link to youtube clip). That’s Clapton’s part, in a Beatles song - at a tribute for the just-passed songwriter featuring his son - and Prince just owned it, delivering an explosive lead that perfectly fit the climax of a passionate song.
Muso Cred - to be clear, MJ and Madonna, two artists you cite in your quote, have total cred. Their talents as songwriters, entertainers, provocateurs and personalities are unquestionable. But they are very different from Prince - they are frontmen (in a non-gender-specific sorta way ;)). They are musicians who present themselves as entertainers. Prince presents himself as an entertaining musician. NOTE - neither is better than the other, they are just different. A great illustration would be the production of a show by these guys - Madonna and MJ put on spectacles with VERY precise moves, song transitions, stunts, costume changes. Prince is legendary as a band leader - his band can turn on a dime as he calls out changes, stretches out solos, gets everyone quiet and then builds them back up - he choreographs the structure while it is happening. So he not only has the cred of being a technically brilliant musician who could make a living simply on his instrument(s), but even while leading with playing, his entertainment skills are of the highest caliber. He can do tricks with guitars, mic stands and his moves that are on a level with Buddy Guy, Jimi Hendrix and James Brown.
Songs - Prince has a catalogue that pretty much anyone would envy, in terms of hits, songs that have crossed over to become part of the fabric of the era they were first heard in. Not much else to say here - in terms of personal taste, YMMV, but the success and endurance of the songs is a matter of record.
That’s a start - does that help? I gotta get back to work.
The fact that so many feel he is indisputably better than Michael has definitely given me pause to reconsider my position.
I really liked that song, very catchy melody.
Uh yeah, good point. Though I voted Michael, I’m not really a huge Michael fan per se. I don’t own any of his albums, I just know and enjoy a lot of his songs.
I was born in 1983, my generation listened to Nirvana and Red Hot Chili Peppers. I love 80s pop, but I don’t know all of it the way people who were heavily into the music scene at that time did. Michael Jackson got way more mainstream exposure than Prince in the 90s from what I recall, and that has influenced my view of both artists tremendously.
I feel bad saying this, but I’m not impressed at all by the vocals on the Prince tracks linked to in these threads. Good music, yeah, but he doesn’t seem to have a very strong voice. I tend to really emphasize vocals in my music preferences… Madonna, for instance, is not the best singer in the world, but she has a very clear and commanding voice that emotionally drives a lot of her music. When the vocals aren’t there, I turn to the lyrics (which are really important to me in music) and I’m not getting much out of the lyrics either. So it’s hard. While I can see something unique there, it’s not really clicking with me.
Creep is such an amazing song, no matter who sings it.
Yes, it does help tremendously, thanks for taking the time. I agree with you very much on the view of Madonna as a performer vs. musician. I’m definitely going to look into Prince’s music more, even if it’s not totally my thing I think this thread has given me a new respect for him as an artist.
Don’t forget drumming - we have a concert video here where Sheila E. is drumming like she has eight arms, and she stands up and Prince sits down and keeps the beat without missing a pause. At this point I’d be surprised to hear him not dominate on an instrument. Oh yeah, he was going to dance school when he dropped out and became a musician, too, so he’s also a dancer. A tiny little dancer.
Olives, we must not be linking to the right videos (or it isn’t coming through on these songs) - Prince has an exceptionally strong voice. His music is also very complex and not always easily accessible; my experience getting to know his library was, “Hunh. That’s not so great. I don’t know what the big deal is,” for about three or four listens. After that it was, “OH MY GOD, WHY HAVEN’T I BEEN LISTENING TO THIS ALL MY LIFE?!?” I’m actually excited for you to get the chance to discover Prince in all his glory.
Some more links to explore the depth of his style: Anna Stesia (one of my favourite Prince songs)
Probably any number of reasons for this. His stuff is best heard on a full stereo, or with a good pair of headphones (much like any good music, really). Small computer speakers or earbuds rarely sound good. If you already know Prince has a strong voice, you’ll be more likely to overlook poor reproduction, but someone new to him is likely to think that is actually how he’s supposed to sound. Plus, most of what’s being linked is his older stuff, which is mixed much softer than current loud music… I listened to 1999 and Diamonds and Pearls back to back on my iPod today, and the sound level difference was striking. His voice is a bit less prominent in the mix on the earlier stuff in 1999, and someone might assume his voice is being overwhelmed by the music.
For an example of his vocal prowess, I’d check out The Beautiful Ones from Purple Rain - not just for the screams at the end, but for the way he transitions so smoothly from falsetto to tenor (? - sorry, not sure what exactly his normal singing voice is considered) in the verses and choruses.
While I already said above that for me it’s an easy Prince win, this discussion is really interesting.
Not least that the prince fans are posting lots of links to support their argument, shining some light on some less well known points in his career; while the Jackson supporters are not. (Beatboxing notwithstanding) I wonder if this is because MJ’s music is so well known and ubiquitous that there’s no more to be said or because Prince fans feel the need to offer exhibits to support their case - or some other reason?
Whatever the reason I’m very grateful for hearing Black Sweat for the 1st time and WordMan - thank you for the link to Gently Weeps. Very much.
(Aside - does he have some toggle switch below the bridge? Couldn’t see one but seemed to be doing something there to alter the sounds)
Anyway - for me it was Prince before and now even moreso. That Lovesexy gig was the best I’ve seen.
Prince is insanely productive, both in the studio and in terms of live performances. And his live performances vary a lot, given his band leadership capabilities. There is simply more video out there that shows many different sides. With MJ, you have canon - e.g., his recorded versions are THE standard, and his tours were all choreographed to unwavering in terms of song order, song interpretation, etc. - so watching a vid of MJ singing X in one city will likely sound very much like him singing X in other cities. Not so with Prince.
Sure - happy to. As far as that Tele - to my knowledge that is just Prince’s Tele; by that I mean it is actually a knock-off made by Hohner. You may have seen that darker-colored wood strip running behind the guitar bridge and thought it was a switch?
I’ve posted several videos in addition to the beat boxing one. A few of my favorite “later” Michael songs:
They Don’t Care About Us– this is his reaction after the initial charges were pressed against him. This is the “angry black man” MJ I referenced before. Stranger in Moscow- Another reaction to the charges- a truly beautiful song that most folks haven’t heard.
Those songs are both off of 'HIStory." “Invincible” is one of my favorite albums of his (his last), but it lends itself more toward a solid, classic RnB (Smokey Robinson comes to mind, etc)-- so it’s a little more sappy and romantic. Still, if you like that sort of thing (and I do, I could listen to that classic Motown stuff all day), it’s definitely worth a listen.
Another one from “Invincible” where they alter his voice in parts (the claim is that for the main singing of the verses, though, it isn’t altered)- nice funky song:
2000 Watts
I think part of the results being as skewed as they are is that it’s always cooler to dislike the more mainstream pop act, regardless of how talented they are. Don’t me wrong, Prince of course is a very popular artist, but there’s always a tendency amongst musicphiles (did I just make up a word? Sure did!) to be more supportive of the less mainstream person; Michael is seen as the Pepsi sponsored pop star, while Prince is the real artist. Truth is, they both have tremendous music ability, song writing talent, and performing skills.
Prince by two lengths. Michael Jackson was very talented and Thriller is the most influential album of the last 30 years, but Prince is just a superb musician, a guitar player second only to Jimi and a very good songwriter.
I read somewhere that John Lennon said he wanted the Beatles to make a song as good as Jerry Lee Lewis’ “Whole Lotta Shakin’ Going On.” Prince succeeded with “Little Red Corvette.”
No, I’d say that’s pretty much it. Prince is technical. MJ is part of the tapestry of people’s lives, Prince may not be. Everyone knows the best part of MJ’s oeuvre. So, both, really. Prince rewards exploration. With MJ, everything’s already known. It’s like searching for a little-known Beatles song. Even their little known stuff, everyone knows.
I don’t think that applies here - it’s not like Prince is some indie artist with just a cult following. Most people have said, in fact, that they enjoy both artists - they just don’t enjoy your preference the most. I don’t know why there’s always a tendency to explain away results people disagree with as hipsterism; the fact is, in my case at least, I just get more enjoyment from Prince’s music. It has nothing to do with racking up cool points.
[hijack]Still, hipsterism, musical elitism, whatever you want to call it, does go on possibly a bit more so than you’d care to admit. To see it, all one has to do is take a look at the comments section of nearly any A.V. Club article or review. Take this, for example. If that’s not musical snobbery, then I don’t know what is.[/hijack]
