# Prince William's arms? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424 "2006-12-16T19:49:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/1 "2006-12-16T19:49:36Z")
The celebrity items in the papers for the last few days are full of stuff about Prince William’s commissioning and graduation from the UK’s equivalent of The Trade School on the Hudson. While it is very nice that he is now Second _Left_tenant William Something-or-an-other Wales, I can’t help but notice that all of the other new lieutenants in his rank (or file) seem to be carrying a sword, while our William has a rifle. Any significance to that? Surely he could afford to get his own sword. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/2 "2006-12-16T20:38:24Z")
You know, it might be the other way 'round. Maybe the prince gets the more modern weapon, because he’s the hotshot. That’s just a wild guess; I know nothing about royal princes, and only a little about finger prince. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/3 "2006-12-16T20:48:43Z")
The Royal arms, debruised by a white label of five points in chief. Oh, you weren’t talking heraldry?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/4 "2006-12-16T21:20:33Z")
I saw that on TV and I wondered why William was the only one wearing a red sash on his uniform. Is that a badge of his royal rank or his military rank? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/5 "2006-12-16T21:24:07Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] The Royal arms, debruised by a white label of five points in chief. [/QUOTE] [Not quite:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_William#Style_and_arms) [quote=] On his 18th birthday, Prince William was granted his own personalized coat of arms. His arms are those of the Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom with a label for difference: _Quarterly 1st and 4th, Gules three Lions passant guardant in pale Or (England) 2nd, or a lion rampant within a Double Tressure flory counterflory Gules (Scotland) 3rd, Azure a Harp Or stringed Argent (Ireland) the whole differenced by a Label of three points Argent the central point charged with an Escallop Gules._ The Escallop Gules is in reference to his mother, the late Diana, Princess of Wales, as the Escallop appears in the Spencer coat of arms. As the eldest son of the eldest son of the sovereign, his arms are differenced by a label of three points unlike the arms of other grandchildren of the sovereign (if granted) which are differenced by a label of five points. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/6 "2006-12-16T22:39:00Z")
Thanks. I was going by the Fox-Davies cite, which says that the eldest son gets a plain white label of three points, and the eldest son’s eldest son a plain white label of five points. (There are marks on labels to indicate cadency for younger sons.) Apparently, though, Prince William got a special differentiation to honor Diana. ---
**Author:** ![ryobserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@ryobserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryobserver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/7 "2006-12-16T23:50:12Z")
The red sash and rifle were explained by The Guardian as due to his platoon having won the right to carry the sovereign’s banner, whatever that may be. [Story](http://www.guardian.co.uk/monarchy/story/0,,1973364,00.html) William was also a finalist for the Sword of Honor, Sandhurst’s award for best-performing cadet. The Sword went to a woman cadet, for the third time ever. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/8 "2006-12-17T09:12:10Z")
Maybe the rifle was to do with his role as “marker” at the end of the row - the others use the marker to keep the line straight, maybe his having a rifle rather than sword maakes the marker easier to identify & facilitates this ? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/9 "2006-12-17T11:28:38Z")
**Cat Jones** would seem to have the right of it. See [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6182981.stm). Picture 7 is subtitled > [@BBC](#): > > Because he is 6ft 3ins, William acted as a marker at the end of the line to ensure the cadets marched straight . ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/10 "2006-12-17T14:45:03Z")
Having read the other contributions here, it strikes me that 2LT Wales has a rifle, and a red sash, for the same reason: he is part of the color guard platoon. It makes sense to me that the color guard would be armed with something more than ceremonial weapons. I don’t think he is the “marker” because the “marker” is typically on the right flank of the first rank of the formation. Neither to I think it his stature because when forming for parade by height the system is form from front to rear and right to left with the tallest soldiers in the front rank and along the right flank. The color guard thing, however, rings true. I’ll buy that explination. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/11 "2006-12-17T14:50:19Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] See [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6182981.stm). . [/QUOTE] Gawd, could he look any \*more \*like a storybook Prince? Quite a handsome chap y’all got there! _le sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/12 "2006-12-17T14:53:37Z")
Hm, a King-sized king for a change. And I may just about outlive Charles and see William on the throne. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/13 "2006-12-17T15:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=Spavined Gelding] Having read the other contributions here, it strikes me that 2LT Wales . . . [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t he be Leftenant **Windsor?** That’s the family name, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/14 "2006-12-17T15:52:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Wouldn’t he be Leftenant **Windsor?** That’s the family name, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] Actually, his family name’s Mountbatten-Windsor. Extrapolating from Cecil’s classic [What did Prince Andrew’s superiors in the Royal Navy call him?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_136.html), he’d go’ll by Lieutenant HRH, the Prince William. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/15 "2006-12-17T17:08:34Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Gawd, could he look any \*more \*like a storybook Prince? Quite a handsome chap y’all got there! _le sigh_ [/QUOTE] Mind you, if he took that cap off you’d see that he’s got the Windsor early baldness gene, and he’s got it bad. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/16 "2006-12-17T17:36:52Z")
So he going to Iraq or Afganistan? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/17 "2006-12-17T17:56:44Z")
[QUOTE=cckerberos] > [@Brain Glutton](#): > > Wouldn’t he be Leftenant Windsor? That’s the family name, isn’t it? Actually, his family name’s Mountbatten-Windsor. Extrapolating from Cecil’s classic [What did Prince Andrew’s superiors in the Royal Navy call him?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_136.html), he’d go’ll by Lieutenant HRH, the Prince William. [/QUOTE] This gets complex, and Her Majesty is responsible for one part of the complexity. First, if you receive a title, your “surname of use” thereafter is that title, although (1) your original family name is “in reserve” for descendants not entitled to the title, and (2) the modern tradition is to make the title from the surname, so that Sir Lawrence Olivier, on being ennobled, became Sir Lawrence, Baron Olivier, and was thereafter known as Lord Olivier. Princess Di’s brother bears both the family surname and title of Spencer, his ancestor named Spencer having been created Earl Spencer. But if the Queen became minded to honor the wisdom of **the Perfect Master** , he would thereafter be known not as Cecil Adams but as Cecil, Duke of Omniscience. It follows, therefore, that Elizabeth’s actual name is Elizabeth Alexandra Mary, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and filling in “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” in the one-inch blank labelled “surname” could no doubt get tiring for her. Her actual signature is “Elizabeth R.” – the “R” standing for Regina, Queen. Charles is Prince of Wales. His legal signature is Charles, P. Wales. William is “Prince William of Wales” and his “surname of use” is Wales. Now, their **house** name is Windsor. It was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha from 1901, when Queen Victoria died, until 1917, when it was changed by royal warrant in a wave of Germanophobia during World War I. And Elizabeth II’s **titled** descendants, in the line of succession, retain that title by another royal warrant she issued in 1960, despite the fact that it’s passing through the female line. “Mountbatten-Windsor” is the hyphenated surname, acknowledging both the House of Battenberg/Mountbatten and the House of Windsor, which her descendants not entitled to titles will bear, again by royal warrant. (Somebody with a really good knowledge of British honorary titles can sort out who would eventually get this surname; children of younger sons is what I **think** it applies to, so that Harry’s prospective kids would bear it, and Andrew’s daughters do.) One small exception to this whole rigmarole: When members of the royal family sign parish registers and the like, as participants or witnesses to official acts (e.g., marriage licenses and certificates of marriage, certificates of baptism, etc.) they do it with given name and house name, so that Elizabeth signed her own marriage license as “Elizabeth Windsor.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/18 "2006-12-17T18:26:24Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] So he going to Iraq or Afganistan? [/QUOTE] According to many newspaper reports, no. Despite the increased risk both to him and those around him I think that this is a mistake. Those I know who’ve been there tell me the situation is nowhere near as bad as the press makes out. I would rather him blooded so that when he becomes King, he will know what the politicians are getting the country into. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/19 "2006-12-17T18:55:05Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] Mind you, if he took that cap off you’d see that he’s got the Windsor early baldness gene, and he’s got it bad. [/QUOTE] [shrug] Some chicks dig that, don’t ask me why. And a soldier doesn’t need hair, and a king’s crown will fit better without it. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424/20 "2006-12-17T20:03:42Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] According to many newspaper reports, no. Despite the increased risk both to him and those around him I think that this is a mistake. Those I know who’ve been there tell me the situation is nowhere near as bad as the press makes out. I would rather him blooded so that when he becomes King, he will know what the politicians are getting the country into. [/QUOTE] IIRC, he wanted to be deployed to one of the warzones, but his superiors wouldn’t allow it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-williams-arms/384424.md?page=2)