# Prince, you are the KING of the goat-felchers! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050 "2013-07-20T18:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/101 "2013-07-22T20:28:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The video is about more than just the song, its about the performance. Why should someone who only contributed it partly get full rights to it? He doesn’t. Gaffa could remove the audio and repost the video (the portion no one disputes is his). But I suspect you may have known this. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/102 "2013-07-22T20:31:26Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Gaffa is asking YouTube to host his video. They value Prince more than Gaffa (with good reason) and so they no longer care to host the offending material. If Gaffa wants to start his on video sharing site he’s more than welcome to do so, but it seems he doesn’t feel like doing all that hard work. Not to mention that Gaffa is still offering for sale the DVD containing said video on his business website. So what is all the fuss? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/103 "2013-07-22T20:48:34Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > The part everyone seems to be deliberately avoiding is not whether or not Mr. Rogers has the right to assert his copyright. He does, which I mentioned in the OP. It’s that he chose the most obnoxious of the three options offered. Maybe Prince has read your posts on here, and he enjoys fucking with you because you’re a putz. Or maybe it’s because you were making a profit off of his work, and he (correctly) felt he couldn’t trust that a thief like you would respond to a less harsh method. Seeing as how you’ve continued to use his intellectual content to make money, I suppose he was correct. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/104 "2013-07-22T21:04:10Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Again, I hate defending the asinine copyright laws we currently have, but this kind of made me snort out loud - for the songs in question, all Prince supplied was the words and the melody? That’s like saying for the dinner involved, all Prince supplied was the food. His contribution was of ultimate importance - without his words and melody, there wouldn’t have been a song. I would argue, in your example, that Prince would simply be supplying the recipe for the food, but the food itself (ie. the performance) is by the performers/cooks. Again, why not grant lifetime ownership of a chair to the furniture store it came from? Why is music, and intellectual property in general, granted such an exception? > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Well, first of all, the law disagrees. Secondly, it’s not just between Gaffa and Prince. Gaffa is asking YouTube to host his video. They value Prince more than Gaffa (with good reason) and so they no longer care to host the offending material. If Gaffa wants to start his on video sharing site he’s more than welcome to do so, but it seems he doesn’t feel like doing all that hard work. You didn’t specify the nature of your objection. I’m not going to pretend I knew whether you simply support Prince’s rights, or think he’s also morally correct. My agreement with Gaffa takes into account the nature of the site he’s trying to host the video and the law. My agreement with Gaffa is an argument that Youtube and copyright law are morally in error and should change their policies to reflect that based on the artistic promotional nature of copyright law and art protection. That’s why I specified that its not harmful to Prince and that Prince is a dick, which is not a legal term whatsoever > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Prince says it does. And he’s the one who gets to decide, being the artist and all. Not you. He’s wrong and the law should be changed to reflect that. Plus, at this point, it is arguably more harmful to deny Youtube fair use of the songs as a performance than hold on to it so tightly > [@Hbns](#): > > He doesn’t. > Gaffa could remove the audio and repost the video (the portion no one disputes is his). But I suspect you may have known this. The video is the full performance. And while your solution would solve one problem, the question remains why, in a video with a song and a performance, that the owner of the song gets so much power over the entire video. Suppose the owners of the different venues that Prince plays concerts in decides that since they own the stage and the equipment, they get to decide whether or not Prince and put that concert on a DVD and sell it. What would be the difference? Did Prince break ground on the arena? Did he pour concrete and set the foundation? Why doesn’t the owner of the arena get the same rights to each concert performance like Prince or any artist gets to their songs? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/105 "2013-07-22T21:36:55Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Actually, no. The YouTube content ID system automatically identifies most songs, asserts a level #1 copyright claim and automatically puts ads next to the video. What are you saying “actually, no” to? It is well-known that Prince personally surfd YouTube looking for content that uses his works. > [@](#): > > And it’s because he behaves like a 3 year old. Because he is using a mechanism that is explicitly outlined in the law. That’s infantile behavior. Hm. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why is music, and intellectual property in general, granted such an exception? Because unlike everything else, intellectual property—well, specifically, the kind of property protected by copyright law, which is creative works of expression—is more than anything else, an expression of an individual’s personality. Prince created his song. It belongs to him. Period. If you want to use it in certain ways, you have to get his permission. And the ultimate fact is that this level of protection actually harms no one. There are hundreds of thousands of songs in existence, many of which are in the public domain and many of which have owners that would freely give permission to use them unlike Prince does. So it is never (or rarely) the case that the use of a _specific_ copyrighted work is absolutely necessary. If the value of Prince’s creation did not deserve the level of deference given to it, then why did the performers feel it necessary to use his song? They could have used a different song, or made up their own. The fact is that they wanted to use it because for whatever reason they felt that Prince’s song was so good that it was the most appropriate. And if Prince’s song is _that_ good, then he should absolutely have the right to control it. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/106 "2013-07-22T21:45:15Z")
Just because the law allows it doesn’t mean it’s not petty. Which, given what I’ve heard about Prince doesn’t surprise me in the least. If I were gaffa, I’d cut out the portions with Prince songs and leave a note in the description that says that Prince refuses to allow children to cover his songs. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/107 "2013-07-22T22:08:30Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Just because the law allows it doesn’t mean it’s not petty. Which, given what I’ve heard about Prince doesn’t surprise me in the least. Exactly. Thank you for that very succinct description. > [@](#): > > If I were gaffa, I’d cut out the portions with Prince songs and leave a note in the description that says that Prince refuses to allow children to cover his songs. Good idea. In this case, I’d have to re-upload it, but I’d have to mute the audio and have an explanatory title explaining that Prince was being a pissy little shit about things, because, as near as I can tell, **nobody** reads the descriptions on YouTube videos. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/108 "2013-07-22T22:14:14Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > J > If I were gaffa, I’d cut out the portions with Prince songs and leave a note in the description that says that Prince refuses to allow children to cover his songs. Which would be wrong. Prince can’t stop anybody from covering his songs. I can go down to open mike night at my local watering hole and sing Purple Rain all I want, and assuming he’s listed with one of the licensing entities, there’s nothing Prince can do to stop me. He’d be paid for that by the venue’s license covering live performance. What Prince is doing is preventing a shameless leech, ie **Gaffa** , from posting and attempting to profit from unauthorized recordings on YouTube, which as I posted earlier, is a different bundle of rights. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/109 "2013-07-22T22:15:57Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Just because the law allows it doesn’t mean it’s not petty. Which, given what I’ve heard about Prince doesn’t surprise me in the least. > > If I were gaffa, I’d cut out the portions with Prince songs and leave a note in the description that says that Prince refuses to allow children to cover his songs. That is a lie though. Prince _does_ allow kids to cover his songs; they received permission to do so. What he is NOT allowing is for gaffa to use YouTube to facilitate the sale of the performance of his music for gaffa’s monetary benefit. Gaffa apparently feels this is “unfair” although the rest of us are unable to parse how that is. Hey, gaffa, how’s that songwriting going? Have you written any hits yet? eta: ninja’d by **Oakminster**! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/110 "2013-07-22T22:24:23Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I would argue, in your example, that Prince would simply be supplying the recipe for the food, but the food itself (ie. the performance) is by the performers/cooks. Again, why not grant lifetime ownership of a chair to the furniture store it came from? Why is music, and intellectual property in general, granted such an exception? Recipes are covered by copyright law: “A mere listing of ingredients is not protected under copyright law. However, where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a collection of recipes as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection. Note that if you have secret ingredients to a recipe that you do not wish to be revealed, you should not submit your recipe for registration, because applications and deposit copies are public records. See FL 122, Recipes.” With a chair, one could apply for a design patent. Copyright doesnt apply. [Design patent - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent#Protections) People’s ideas and creative contributions get protected. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/111 "2013-07-22T22:24:37Z")
I don’t care for Prince’s music, but if he was twitchy _before_ his record label stole his name I could see him being a little psycho about intellectual property in general. Plus I strongly suspect his own legals were behind the asshattery. You can say all you want that their actions, by extension, are his own, but that doesn’t make it so. His order may simply have been, “Don’t let people steal my shit.” And, their boss being a twitchy, hyperventalating, megalomaniac, they may have erred on the side of “Holy fuck! Don’t steal Prince’s shit!” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/112 "2013-07-22T22:28:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Which would be wrong. Prince can’t stop anybody from covering his songs. I think your point is obvious and anyone with half a brain would understand that by “covering the song”, gaffa would mean “posted on youtube”. If anything, the muted video would amply demonstrate the ability of the kids to do _something_ on stage. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/113 "2013-07-22T22:31:56Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If I were gaffa, I’d cut out the portions with Prince songs and leave a note in the description that says that Prince refuses to allow children to cover his songs. Except that he does allow children to cover his songs. He just doesn’t want to help gaffa make money off the kids’ performance. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/114 "2013-07-22T22:46:55Z")
Perhaps I’m missing something. Apparently both the kids and the venue paid for the rights to use Prince’s songs in their performance. Is there any reason the OP can’t pay ASCAP and/or BMI himself to gain the right to distribute Prince’s compositions on his videos? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/115 "2013-07-22T22:50:25Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think your point is obvious and anyone with half a brain would understand that by “covering the song”, gaffa would mean “posted on youtube”. If anything, the muted video would amply demonstrate the ability of the kids to do _something_ on stage. Oh, yes, anyone with half a brain knows “covering a song” means the same thing as “posting on YouTube to drum up money for my business.” Obviously. I’m pretty sure it’s worded just like that in Black’s Law Dictionary. :rolleyes: I think it would be hilarious if gaffa took this wonderful advice and added such a note, and then was sued for libel by Prince. Imagine the Pit thread from that! ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/116 "2013-07-22T22:51:36Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Perhaps I’m missing something. Apparently both the kids and the venue paid for the rights to use Prince’s songs in their performance. Is there any reason the OP can’t pay ASCAP and/or BMI himself to gain the right to distribute Prince’s compositions on his videos? Because it’s not faaaaaiiir! ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/117 "2013-07-22T22:55:13Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Why does the creator of only one part get to over-rule everyone else, and do it in a way that rules out any challenge? What did you expect from Google? ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/118 "2013-07-23T04:21:17Z")
I wonder what the OP would think if Prince copied his videos and sold them. After all, Prince contributed to the performance so he has a right to sell the vidos for profit. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/119 "2013-07-23T05:22:11Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I wonder what the OP would think if Prince copied his videos and sold them. After all, Prince contributed to the performance so he has a right to sell the vidos for profit. He would find that there is virtually no market for them. Seriously, do you think I’ve sold a single copy of any of the DVDs I’ve made to anyone who isn’t a parent or grandparent of someone in the show? Of all the moronic arguments made in this thread, this has to be the stupidest. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050/120 "2013-07-23T05:32:48Z")
Maybe Prince could sell to the kids’ parents. However, since you apparently don’t get my point, let’s break it down for you. The law says Prince has a right to prevent you from posting videos using his songs. Youtube gives Prince several options of how aggressively he wants to address it. Prince decides he does not want to waive the law in exchange for free advertising (which may or may not make him a jerk). Youtube tells you that if you break the law 3 times you cannot use their service. You, by your own admission, break the law 4 times but manage to withdraw two instances before getting caught. You therefore still have youtube privileges as long as you abide by their rules which asks you to obey the law unless Prince waives it. You have the choice to obey the law and stay on youtube or break the law again and lose access. You still apparently have the right to privately advertise and sell your videos to parents as long as you do not publicly post copywrite-protected content. Seems like you’re still dong OK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prince-you-are-the-king-of-the-goat-felchers/664050.md?page=7)