# Princess Anne, Princess Royal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 4, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497 "2017-07-04T16:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![catwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@catwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catwalker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/1 "2017-07-04T16:53:41Z")
Hi, Cecil, Thanks for the info on the Prince of Wales. Regarding Princess Anne, however, I was fairly sure I had heard that she has been invested as Princess Royal, and Wikipedia confirms that. > **[Anne, Princess Royal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Princess_Royal)** > > Anne, Princess Royal (Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise; born 15 August 1950), is the second child and only daughter of Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and the only sister of King Charles III. Anne is 16th in the line of succession to the British throne\[b\] and has been Princess Royal since 1987. > Born at Clarence House, Anne was educated at Benenden School and began undertaking royal duties upon reaching adulthood. She became a respected equestrian, winning one gold medal in... “Princess Anne has held the title of Princess Royal since 1987” all the best, Catwalker ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/2 "2017-07-04T18:24:10Z")
> [@catwalker](#): > > Hi, Cecil, > Thanks for the info on the Prince of Wales. Regarding Princess Anne, however, I was fairly sure I had heard that she has been invested as Princess Royal, and Wikipedia confirms that. > [Anne, Princess Royal - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Princess_Royal) > “Princess Anne has held the title of Princess Royal since 1987” > all the best, > Catwalker Please note that Uncle Cece wrote his piece on this in 1976. 😉 [How Can I Become Prince of Wales?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/125/how-can-i-become-prince-of-wales) And welcome to the Straight Dope, **Catwalker**! Pull up a chair, and stick around. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/3 "2017-07-12T13:55:16Z")
Rereading that article raises a question in my mind, though. Cecil claims “only one British ruler, Edward III, has taken the throne without the title since Edward I acquired it … in 1282.” But I can name four monarchs – one of them English, to be fair, not British – just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first. The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II. None of the four was the eldest son of a sovereign, so none would have been made Prince of Wales. I believe each _became_ Prince of Wales upon acceding to the throne (as I believe the title reverts to the sovereign if it’s unoccupied), but surely that’s not what Cecil was talking about… (?) Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/4 "2017-07-12T14:51:22Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > … I can name four monarchs – one of them English, to be fair, not British – just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first. > > The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II. Some more are James I and VI (inherited through his mother, Mary Queen of Scots), James II and VII (second surviving son of Charles I), William III (inherited through his mother, Princess Mary), and George I (inherited through his mother Sophia, Electress of Hanover). ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/5 "2017-07-12T16:36:38Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Rereading that article raises a question in my mind, though. Cecil claims “only one British ruler, Edward III, has taken the throne without the title since Edward I acquired it … in 1282.” > > But I can name four monarchs – one of them English, to be fair, not British – just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first. > > The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II. > > None of the four was the eldest son of a sovereign, so none would have been made Prince of Wales. I believe each _became_ Prince of Wales upon acceding to the throne (as I believe the title reverts to the sovereign if it’s unoccupied), but surely that’s not what Cecil was talking about… (?) > Powers &8^] I seem to remember that that particular glaring mistake has been pointed out before. What Cecil was presumably trying to claim was that Edward III is the only surviving eldest son of the previous monarch who has succeeded to the throne without first being Prince of Wales. But even that wouldn’t be true - Henry VI is the other counter-example. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/6 "2017-07-12T17:15:20Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > But I can name four monarchs – one of them English, to be fair, not British – just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first. > > The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II. > [@Giles](#): > > Some more are James I and VI (inherited through his mother, Mary Queen of Scots), James II and VII (second surviving son of Charles I), William III (inherited through his mother, Princess Mary), and George I (inherited through his mother Sophia, Electress of Hanover). In addition to those **Powers** and **Giles** mention, and all Queens, Kings after Edward II _who lacked the Wales title_ before ascension include Edward III, Henry IV, Henry VI, Edward IV, Richard III, Henry VII, Edward VI, William IV. Five Princes of Wales died before their fathers. The only Prince who survived his father but didn’t become King was James “III” the Old Pretender. Richard II and George III were each made Prince of Wales as grandson, rather than son, of the Monarch. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/7 "2017-07-13T14:37:58Z")
I read a bio of Queen Elizabeth II a few years ago - maybe Sally Bedell Smith’s very good one? - in which the author wrote that there was a brief consideration by King George VI and Winston Churchill after WWII of giving then-Princess Elizabeth the title “Princess of Wales” in her own right, but they decided not to do it because it would’ve been unprecedented. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/8 "2017-07-13T19:01:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I read a bio of Queen Elizabeth II a few years ago - maybe Sally Bedell Smith’s very good one? - in which the author wrote that there was a brief consideration by King George VI and Winston Churchill after WWII of giving then-Princess Elizabeth the title “Princess of Wales” in her own right, but they decided not to do it because it would’ve been unprecedented. If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history’s dustbin. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/9 "2017-07-14T03:18:11Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history’s dustbin. Welsh devolution might have eliminated the whole thing by then. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/10 "2017-07-14T06:00:48Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history’s dustbin. > Powers &8^] Maybe he can reintroduce the idea by following Vernon J’s dicta in the \*Ship Money \*. The way politicians are going, he might need to.😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/11 "2019-02-08T02:17:11Z")
Bumped. Why did the Queen wait until 1987 to make Anne Princess Royal, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Bayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bayaker/32/3454_2.png) [@Bayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/12 "2019-02-08T02:52:00Z")
The Wiki article doesn’t address what a _Princess Royal_ actually is. It must have some kind of official/legal/cultural designation in England, so what does that specific designation mean? Anne was already a royal princess since she is the daughter of a monarch.Cecil says that it’s the female equivalent of Prince of Wales, but that doesn’t really make sense because _Prince of Wales_ effectively means heir apparent, and is associated(at least historically) with owning/receiving revenue from/governing an actual place. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/13 "2019-02-08T03:06:39Z")
Separate from Anne’s bio, the title has its own Wiki page: [Princess Royal - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Royal) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/14 "2019-02-08T05:52:06Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Bumped. > > Why did the Queen wait until 1987 to make Anne Princess Royal, anyway? She’s generally pretty stingy with these things. Not in absolute terms (the average person gets zero titles from their mother), but relative to her predecessors she waits a long time before giving her family new honors. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/15 "2019-02-08T09:54:03Z")
> [@Bayaker](#): > > The Wiki article doesn’t address what a _Princess Royal_ actually is. It must have some kind of official/legal/cultural designation in England, so what does that specific designation mean? No, it’s a mark of the monarch’s estimation of their eldest daughter. AFAIK it doesn’t even necessarily go with their being counted as a “Counsellor of State” (i.e., someone who can be called on to deputise for the monarch on the formalities of state business), which does go with their position in the line of succession. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/16 "2019-02-08T16:27:50Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history’s dustbin. What would the title be? Princess of Wales? What title would a younger brother get? Prince Royal? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/17 "2019-02-08T17:10:51Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What would the title be? Princess of Wales? Why not? Though the Queen holds the title Lord of Man and not Lady of Man, so who knows? > [@](#): > > What title would a younger brother get? Prince Royal? Again, why not? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/18 "2019-02-08T18:10:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Why not? Though the Queen holds the title Lord of Man and not Lady of Man, so who knows? > > Again, why not? I have no idea- I’m not well versed in how a thousand years of tradition is going to intersect with the removal of male primogeniture. Isn’t the Queen also the Duke of Normandy as well? ISTR that there are some few ducal possessions that are not Crown posessions, as weird as that might be. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/19 "2019-02-08T21:23:09Z")
> [@bump](#): > > …Isn’t the Queen also the Duke of Normandy as well? ISTR that there are some few ducal possessions that are not Crown posessions, as weird as that might be. She is indeed: > **[Duke of Normandy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Normandy#Title_today)** > > In the Middle Ages, the duke of Normandy was the ruler of the Duchy of Normandy in north-western France. The duchy arose out of a grant of land to the Viking leader Rollo by the French king Charles the Simple in 911. In 924 and again in 933, Normandy was expanded by royal grant. Rollo's male-line descendants continued to rule it until 1135, and cognatic descendants ruled it until 1204. In 1202 the French king Philip II declared Normandy a forfeited fief and by 1204 his army had conquered it. It... > **[Duke of Lancaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Lancaster)** > > The dukedom of Lancaster is a former English peerage, created three times in the Middle Ages, which finally merged in the Crown when Henry V succeeded to the throne in 1413. Despite the extinction of the dukedom the title has continued to be used to refer to the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom in relation to the County Palatine of Lancaster and the Duchy of Lancaster, an estate held separately from the Crown Estate for the benefit of the sovereign. > There were three creations of the duke... ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497/20 "2019-02-09T03:59:38Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Why not? Though the Queen holds the title Lord of Man and not Lady of Man, so who knows? “Lord of Mann”, actually. “Isle of Man”, but “Lord of Mann”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/princess-anne-princess-royal/790497.md?page=2)