# Principals Meeting on Torture: Can We Impeach Now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301 "2008-04-14T14:46:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/1 "2008-04-14T14:46:09Z")
We know that [Cheney was on the team that approved the torture techniques, in great detail](http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/story?id=4583256&page=1). [Bush says he was aware of those meetings, and approved](http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/story?id=4635175&page=1). As George Tenet might say, it’s a slam dunk. Hearings would be needed to get on record exactly what ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ the principals approved in what combination, but there isn’t much doubt that it wouldn’t look pretty. It goes without saying that the votes aren’t there for removing Bush and Cheney from office: getting 34 GOP Senators to back Bush and Cheney up, no matter what, is also a slam dunk. But it would at least show the American people and the world that _one_ of our two political parties takes this stuff seriously. And it would put the other party in the position of explaining why approving torture isn’t impeachable, but lying about a blowjob is. So, other than ‘they’re out of here in 9 months - why waste time over this?’ is there an argument _against_ a dual impeachment? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/2 "2008-04-14T14:58:56Z")
I think America is just too numbed to the whole thing. There’s been a new ‘Bush & his friends are evil’ revelation every other week. We all know they were torturing, we all know they knew about it, there’s nothing I can do about, yawn. I don’t think most of America would care much at this point. To get the majority of population behind it, not that it’s necessary, there would need to be something new or especially bad to cause an outcry. At this point, it would probably just look like Impeachment II: the Revenge for what they did to our guy. Until you can get enough of the people behind it that Congress/Senate has to go along with it, there’s no point. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/3 "2008-04-14T15:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] We know that [Cheney was on the team that approved the torture techniques, in great detail](http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/story?id=4583256&page=1). [Bush says he was aware of those meetings, and approved](http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/story?id=4635175&page=1). As George Tenet might say, it’s a slam dunk. Hearings would be needed to get on record exactly what ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ the principals approved in what combination, but there isn’t much doubt that it wouldn’t look pretty. It goes without saying that the votes aren’t there for removing Bush and Cheney from office: getting 34 GOP Senators to back Bush and Cheney up, no matter what, is also a slam dunk. But it would at least show the American people and the world that _one_ of our two political parties takes this stuff seriously. And it would put the other party in the position of explaining why approving torture isn’t impeachable, but lying about a blowjob is. So, other than ‘they’re out of here in 9 months - why waste time over this?’ is there an argument _against_ a dual impeachment? [/QUOTE] Wasn’t Clinton under oath at the time he lied? And didn’t he wag his finger and lie directly to the American people’s faces? GW at least admits what he did here, the torture was legal, was to be used on alleged terrororists and had the AG’s approval. They’re really not the same thing. One person _knew_ they were doing the wrong thing and the other was pushing the legal limits to get al Queda suspects to talk. I’m pretty sure you can guess which one would bother the American people the most. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/4 "2008-04-14T15:11:40Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] So, other than ‘they’re out of here in 9 months - why waste time over this?’ is there an argument _against_ a dual impeachment? [/QUOTE] One argument is that what they have done/authorized is not a crime. I think it **is,** under international law and U.S. law enacted pursuant to such, but that part is not, in and of itself, a slam-dunk. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/5 "2008-04-14T15:28:17Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] Wasn’t Clinton under oath at the time he lied? And didn’t he wag his finger and lie directly to the American people’s faces? GW at least admits what he did here, the torture was legal, was to be used on alleged terrororists and had the AG’s approval. They’re really not the same thing. One person _knew_ they were doing the wrong thing and the other was pushing the legal limits to get al Queda suspects to talk. I’m pretty sure you can guess which one would bother the American people the most. [/QUOTE] If lying about a blowjob bothers the American people more than an administration _systematically_ deconstructing the rule of law with the sole aim of detaining people in secret and torturing them, I think we’re already fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/6 "2008-04-14T15:36:10Z")
How many times are we going to go down this road? There isn’t going to be an impeachment, much less a removal from office as a result. You know this… right? Now, for those in a cave, on Mars, for the past few years, a brief recap why: Although “grounds for impeachment” can technically be “anything the House says they are,” the reality is that you need to allege clear violations of criminal law to get impeachment votes. So when you wonder plaintively why the impeachment votes aren’t there, despite all the mean, nasty, conservative things Bush and Cheney have done, the answer is: because there is no credible allegation of a clear violation of domestic law. Andrew Johnson’s impeachment was very simple: he was alleged to have violated the Tenure of Office Act. Bill Clinton’s impeachment was simple: he was alleged to have violated the perjury statutes. Doing mean, nasty, things that infringe on “international law” ain’t gonna cut it. This will remain true no matter how many threads you start about it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/7 "2008-04-14T15:43:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Now, for those in a cave, on Mars, for the past few years, a brief recap why: Although “grounds for impeachment” can technically be “anything the House says they are,” the reality is that you need to allege clear violations of criminal law to get impeachment votes. [/QUOTE] _Bzzzzzzt!_ Wrong answer. For those who were in a cave on Mars during the impeachment summer of 1974, the House Judiciary Committee voted to the contrary by a 28-10 margin. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/8 "2008-04-14T15:46:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How many times are we going to go down this road? Yeah, I’m tired of having to point this out every cotton-pickin’ time, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/9 "2008-04-14T16:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] _Bzzzzzzt!_ Wrong answer. For those who were in a cave on Mars during the impeachment summer of 1974, the House Judiciary Committee voted to the contrary by a 28-10 margin. [/QUOTE] The first article of impeachment approved by the House Judiciary Committee was for the crime of obstruction of justice. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/10 "2008-04-14T16:46:08Z")
I think a better thread title would be: I can has impeachment now? 🙂 [QUOTE=RTFirefly] It goes without saying that the votes aren’t there for removing Bush and Cheney from office: getting 34 GOP Senators to back Bush and Cheney up, no matter what, is also a slam dunk. But it would at least show the American people and the world that _one_ of our two political parties takes this stuff seriously. And it would put the other party in the position of explaining why approving torture isn’t impeachable, but lying about a blowjob is. So, other than ‘they’re out of here in 9 months - why waste time over this?’ is there an argument _against_ a dual impeachment? [/QUOTE] Firstly, they’ve already admitting to waterboarding at least 3 times, so I don’t see that this is anything new. Of course Bush and Cheney knew about that. Secondly, I think you should ask Nancy Pelosi and other Congressional Democratic leaders that last question. I certainly think there are grounds for impeachment, but it’s a political decision at this point, I think, more than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/11 "2008-04-14T17:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think a better thread title would be: I can has impeachment now? 🙂 [/quote] Maybe we should move on to ROFLMAOcats. Don’t know how they’d differ, but it would _have_ to be an improvement, right? > [@](#): > > Firstly, they’ve already admitting to waterboarding at least 3 times, so I don’t see that this is anything new. Of course Bush and Cheney knew about that. Did either previously admit to having known about it _at the time_? That one’s new to me. Also, Bush’s previously-admitted retrospective knowledge, AFAIK, only applied to KSM. The program that the NSC principals discussed and approved wasn’t just for one detainee. > [@](#): > > Secondly, I think you should ask Nancy Pelosi and other Congressional Democratic leaders that last question. I certainly think there are grounds for impeachment, but it’s a political decision at this point, I think, more than anything else. We’d address _most_ of the issues that come up in this forum to the Powers That Be if we had the chance to actually get a meaningful reply. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/12 "2008-04-14T17:03:30Z")
There is no proof that the administration has approved anything that is torture (and illegal) under American law. It is a fuzzy question as to whether any of the “enhanced interrogation techniques” are legally torture. There was a thread in the Pit on this subject . There is nothing in the law that makes the way waterboarding was used or the way any of the other “enhanced interrogation techniques” (that we know about) were used that makes them torture under American law. > **[So is Lynndie England gonna get a pardon?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463568)** > > Disgusting. It’s nice that they blamed the retarded girl. It was all her idea. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/13 "2008-04-14T17:03:33Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] The first article of impeachment approved by the House Judiciary Committee was for the crime of obstruction of justice. [/QUOTE] And it even got fewer votes than the abuse-of-power article. At any rate, that article was an emphatic statement that abuse of power is indeed grounds for impeachment, even when it doesn’t involve the breaking of specific statutes. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/14 "2008-04-14T17:06:19Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] There is no proof that the administration has approved anything that is torture (and illegal) under American law. It is a fuzzy question as to whether any of the “enhanced interrogation techniques” are legally torture. There was a thread in the Pit on this subject . There is nothing in the law that makes the way waterboarding was used or the way any of the other “enhanced interrogation techniques” (that we know about) were used that makes them torture under American law. > **[So is Lynndie England gonna get a pardon?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463568)** > > Disgusting. It’s nice that they blamed the retarded girl. It was all her idea. [/QUOTE] Ah: somewhere in a Dope thread lies evidence backing your claim. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/15 "2008-04-14T17:07:08Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Did either previously admit to having known about it _at the time_? That one’s new to me. [/quote] It was [reported thusly:](http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html) > [@](#): > > Officials told ABC News on Sept. 14 that the controversial interrogation technique, in which a suspect has water poured over his mouth and nose to stimulate a drowning reflex as shown in the above demonstration, had been banned by the CIA director at the recommendation of his deputy, Steve Kappes. > > Hayden sought and received approval from the White House to remove waterboarding from the list of approved interrogation techniques first authorized by a presidential finding in 2002. That’s not an admission, but it would seem to imply that they knew. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/16 "2008-04-14T17:08:03Z")
Why impeach? He’ll be out before proceedings are resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/17 "2008-04-14T17:09:03Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Ah: somewhere in a Dope thread lies evidence backing your claim. Thanks for playing. [/QUOTE] If “enhanced interrogation techniques” as used by the administration are legally torture and illegal, please just cite the law that clearly states this and/or case law that states this. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/18 "2008-04-14T17:19:45Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] Wasn’t Clinton under oath at the time he lied? And didn’t he wag his finger and lie directly to the American people’s faces? GW at least admits what he did here, the torture was legal, was to be used on alleged terrororists and had the AG’s approval. They’re really not the same thing. One person _knew_ they were doing the wrong thing and the other was pushing the legal limits to get al Queda suspects to talk. I’m pretty sure you can guess which one would bother the American people the most. [/QUOTE] It only took two posts to get to “CLINTON GOT A BLOW JOB!” What a surprise. I suppose you actually think that dissembling about a blow job really is worse than torture. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/19 "2008-04-14T17:22:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It only took two posts to get to “CLINTON GOT A BLOW JOB!” What a surprise. I suppose you actually think that dissembling about a blow job really is worse than torture. [/QUOTE] That’s beside the point. It’s about law not morality. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301/20 "2008-04-14T17:23:19Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It was [reported thusly:](http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html) That’s not an admission, but it would seem to imply that they knew. [/QUOTE] It certainly implies it, but from a practical POV, there seemed to be the likelihood of a whole lot of stonewalling between officials saying Hayden received approval from the White House, and building a clear and convincing case that Bush or Cheney approved it. Now Bush has owned up to it. In the words of Nick Danger, “Thanks, half-pint - you just saved me a great deal of investigative work.” That was the hard part with the Nixon impeachment, after all - it was obvious in the spring of 1973 that Nixon was in on the cover-up, but it took another 15 months to build a solid case to prove it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principals-meeting-on-torture-can-we-impeach-now/445301.md?page=2)