# Principles for a better GD **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486 "2009-07-09T19:52:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/21 "2009-07-09T23:43:05Z")
Richard: You make some very good points, but I think it’s a fool’s errand to try and clean up this place. Best to just keep to “the rules” yourself and ignore those who don’t. BTW, you do a very good job of keeping your cool and trying to stay reasonable. I don’t always agree with you on subjects, but I always appreciate your posts. Anyway, it’s very easy to get caught up in the emotional aspect of these debates, and a real struggle to keep a respectful tone. Still, I find it much easier to just focus on debating with those who are trying to keep it respectful and honest. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/22 "2009-07-10T00:03:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > [ol] > [li]Spend time responding to the well reasoned arguments of those with whom you disagree, rather than the least reasonable, most polarizing, or most obviously wrong. Ignore those who are insulting, wholly unreasonable, or acting in bad faith.[/li] > [li]Presume the mistaken statements of others, including their mistaken statements of your position, are unintentional.[/li] > [li]Avoid posts that are more about what has happened in the thread than what the thread is about.[/li] > [li]Do not use sarcasm.[/li] > [li]Explicitly praise reasonable and well-founded disagreement.[/li] > [li]Trust the other thread participants to identify obvious dishonesty without pointing it out.[/li] > [li]Add nuance and knowledge, rather than nitpick errors.[/li] > [li]Take hijacks to other threads, and stay on the announced specific topic of the thread. Do not inject fundamental critiques that apply to many or most GD threads (i.e. anti-state, anti-capitalist, anti-religion, anti-Obama etc.) into every thread to which they apply.[/li] > [li]Do not play games, or attempt gotchas, or focus on the identification of hypocrisy.[/li] > [li]Practice intellectual charity: read the best possible argument into the language of those with whom you disagree.[/li][/ol] > > There are maybe a handful of posters who already consistently do all of these things. For the rest of us, I think it would be interesting to see if the quality or tone of GD can change by trying very hard to do all of these things for a month or so. Who’s with me? > > [Given the audience to whom this addressed, I hope the mods will consider it witnessing and keep it in GD.] I like the list. I wish I could stick to it, but I know I probably won’t be able to. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/23 "2009-07-10T00:31:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > \*t’s a fool’s errand to try and clean up this place. This sounds like a line from a classic western or something. You’re the wise old man at the bar in the rundown town and I’m the young deputy or something. It makes me want to say, “I’m just the fool for the job!” I agree though. I guess I wanted to state the principles so that I remind myself of them, and to encourage like-minded posters to keep doing the same. I do think stuff like this can snowball, and pretty soon everything is just a little better. Anyway, thanks for the compliment. I’ll try to live up to it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/24 "2009-07-10T00:45:28Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I agree though. I guess I wanted to state the principles so that I remind myself of them, and to encourage like-minded posters to keep doing the same. I do think stuff like this can snowball, and pretty soon everything is just a little better. Agreed. Lead by example, and don’t lose your cool. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/25 "2009-07-10T01:04:03Z")
Good post and good rules. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/26 "2009-07-10T03:02:24Z")
My main issue with GD is that some people come in to win debates, not to illuminate their own ideas and listen to those of others. I quite often feel I’ve been out-argued and/or shouted down, but not that my ideas or concepts have been overshadowed by better ones. Great Debates as a Bill O’Reilly experience. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/27 "2009-07-10T04:02:11Z")
I loudly applaud your initiative and hope to live up to your code of debating ethics. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/28 "2009-07-10T07:14:50Z")
Make it a Sticky, as far as I’m concerned. There are too many angry, self-righteous, uptight, myopic, nitpicking, I’m-right-you’re-wrong posters here, and it really casts a pall over this place. I mostly just come in to read now, rather than contribute, because it’s too exhausting and just not worth the effort to continue in many of the debates here. And, I think what **Richard Parker’s** guidelines do (let’s call 'em guidelines, rather than rules, shall we?) is help create a more learning atmosphere for the readers and lurkers (which, rest assured, is a lot), rather than a carnival of lambasting. Save it for the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/29 "2009-07-10T09:06:19Z")
Add another one: people stop posting the same old tired refuted shit. I’m looking at all those lunatics who think AGW is some sort of world-wide conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Maia\_s\_Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/30 "2009-07-10T09:27:24Z")
I love, love, love these suggestions and this OP. Having just (finally) gotten the courage up to start posting on a regular basis, and feeling pretty unsure of what’s appropriate, etc., I bookmarked this thread and will use it to try to be a better poster. Way to do the Gandhi thing, **RP** , and try to be the change you wish to see in the world. I’m in, and will do my best (and would appreciate being gently told if I’m unknowingly doing something entirely inappropriate and boneheaded!). But can I use sarcasm, hyperbole, and other tongue in cheek foolishness if I add smilies? ;):p:D ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/31 "2009-07-10T10:34:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Attention and threadspace are limited resources, and they both get diverted toward the low-hanging fruit. I know the “letting an argument pass is agreeing with it” mentality. I just think it is counter-productive for the purposes of education and enlightenment. > > If a one-sentence reply is sufficient to feel like a bad argument has been addressed, all the better. My concern is with how rebuttal of bad arguments seems to dominate threads to the exclusion of interesting and useful arguments. So, now you’re the one in charge of GD? The idea behind a "debate’ is that you get an argument presented to you, and then you rebut it. It wouldn’t make a great deal of sense to refuse to rebut a bad argument simply because it’s horribly bad. After all, _someone_ purportedly believes it. Isn’t this cite about fighting ignorance? If it is about that, then the wrongest of opinions and thought processes necessarily _require_ refutation. While it may not be the case that the wrong will come to see they’re wrong, we can’t be faulted for at least not trying. However, letting them go on thinking that whatever they’re presented is true by way of our silence does a disservice to them, the purpose of this cite and the nature of debate. To at least not even try to assuage their ignorance, it would seem, is to swallow the purpose of great _debates_ for the sake of style over substance. Otherwise, we might as well call this “post your batshit crazy thoughts without fear of rebuttal”. It’s reasonably common that people don’t address an argument for a few reasons: they agree with it so it’s not particularly helpful. After all, it’s no fun to sit around with someone who says, “I like grapes”. Really? Me too! And then to talk about liking grapes for the next six hours. Or, it’s so utterly stupid that it’s hard to pick where to begin. Or the person is so utterly intentionally wrong that to reject their arguments would require far more time and effort than just ridiculing them. And the ridicule would be more effective anyway, since these types of folks are immune to knowledge, but sensitive to any perceived persecution. I agree with many things you present though. I just don’t think this bit is a particularly good idea if you still want this place to be called “great debates”. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/32 "2009-07-10T14:40:21Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > Otherwise, we might as well call this “post your batshit crazy thoughts without fear of rebuttal”. Your phrasing does a lot to highlight your position in this matter. You sound like one of the people who just can’t let something go unchallenged, who can’t stand strangers being wrong on the internet. If someone posts their batshit crazy thoughts, and nobody rebuts them, so what? It’s not like they’re being appeased in any way, they just won’t be addressed. It would be more accurate to call it a policy of “post your batshit crazy thoughts if you feel like talking to yourself and being ignored.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/33 "2009-07-10T15:11:30Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Your phrasing does a lot to highlight your position in this matter. You sound like one of the people who just can’t let something go unchallenged, who can’t stand strangers being wrong on the internet. If someone posts their batshit crazy thoughts, and nobody rebuts them, so what? It’s not like they’re being appeased in any way, they just won’t be addressed. > > It would be more accurate to call it a policy of “post your batshit crazy thoughts if you feel like talking to yourself and being ignored.” Why exactly are you trying to rebut him? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/34 "2009-07-10T15:15:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why exactly are you trying to rebut him? > > Regards, > Shodan Because I didn’t feel his thoughts had crossed the batshit crazy boundary. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/35 "2009-07-10T15:15:56Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Your phrasing does a lot to highlight your position in this matter. You sound like one of the people who just can’t let something go unchallenged, who can’t stand strangers being wrong on the internet. If someone posts their batshit crazy thoughts, and nobody rebuts them, so what? It’s not like they’re being appeased in any way, they just won’t be addressed. > > It would be more accurate to call it a policy of “post your batshit crazy thoughts if you feel like talking to yourself and being ignored.” Now is the point where I’d redirect you to what the purpose of a _debate_ forum is. It is, oddly enough, about debating. Sometimes in debates, people come up with some really stupid shit. And this site is specifically about the quest to stop ignorance, even if there weren’t a great debate section. So, I’m not really seeing your argument that on a site dedicated to the idea of stopping ignorance, we should let it go unchecked. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/36 "2009-07-10T15:24:24Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > Now is the point where I’d redirect you to what the purpose of a _debate_ forum is. It is, oddly enough, about debating. Sometimes in debates, people come up with some really stupid shit. And this site is specifically about the quest to stop ignorance, even if there weren’t a great debate section. So, I’m not really seeing your argument that on a site dedicated to the idea of stopping ignorance, **we should let it go unchecked**. Emphasis added. Again, this is what I’m talking about. For folks like you, the flow and overall quality of the debate doesn’t seem to matter. Your view is that any and all ignorance must be addressed, that we must not “let it go unchecked.” That attitude is how we end up with unreadable threads with multiple quote-and-response replies that spend an inordinate amount of energy addressing the dumbasses and not enough energy furthering the debate in a constructive manner. As an example, read through the thread about the white firefighters Supreme Court decision. What began as a fairly interesting thread about the case and what it meant degenerated into pointless, unrelated sniping about whether or not black people were less intelligent than other human beings. Modding could have certainly been better in that thread, but the people who were willing to repeatedly take that thread off the rails deserve blame too. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/37 "2009-07-10T15:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > As an example, read through the thread about the white firefighters Supreme Court decision. What began as a fairly interesting thread about the case and what it meant degenerated into pointless, unrelated sniping about whether or not black people were less intelligent than other human beings. Modding could have certainly been better in that thread, but the people who were willing to repeatedly take that thread off the rails deserve blame too. Again, why didn’t you just ignore it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/38 "2009-07-10T15:29:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again, why didn’t you just ignore it? > > Regards, > Shodan I did ignore it, to the point that I ended up ignoring the entire thread because it became uninteresting. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/39 "2009-07-10T15:39:08Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Emphasis added. > > Again, this is what I’m talking about. For folks like you, the flow and overall quality of the debate doesn’t seem to matter. Your view is that any and all ignorance must be addressed, that we must not “let it go unchecked.” That attitude is how we end up with unreadable threads with multiple quote-and-response replies that spend an inordinate amount of energy addressing the dumbasses and not enough energy furthering the debate in a constructive manner. > > As an example, read through the thread about the white firefighters Supreme Court decision. What began as a fairly interesting thread about the case and what it meant degenerated into pointless, unrelated sniping about whether or not black people were less intelligent than other human beings. Modding could have certainly been better in that thread, but the people who were willing to repeatedly take that thread off the rails deserve blame too. Got it. Sorry. In the fight against ignorance, I’ll remember only to talk with the smart folks. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486/40 "2009-07-10T15:43:00Z")
I like your guidelines, **Richard Parker** , and will aspire to follow them on the rare occasions that I post here. I doubt you will be successful in changing this forum much, but you don’t know unless you try. I appreciate the attempt (as do others, I am certain). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/principles-for-a-better-gd/502486.md?page=3)