# Prison-industrial complex
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 23, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771 "2014-04-23T14:58:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/1 "2014-04-23T14:58:35Z")
I saw [this animation](http://i.imgur.com/sNJ7TVI.gif), which shows how much our prison population has been growing per capita over the last few decades. But crime has gone down pretty significantly, if I understand the statistics correctly.
So why have prison populations grown so much? Is this related to the private prison industry? Is this a good thing?
What are the benefits of the private prison industry as opposed to government-run prisons? What are the negatives?
---
### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/2 "2014-04-23T15:20:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I saw [this animation](http://i.imgur.com/sNJ7TVI.gif), which shows how much our prison population has been growing per capita over the last few decades. But crime has gone down pretty significantly, if I understand the statistics correctly.
>
> So why have prison populations grown so much? Is this related to the private prison industry? Is this a good thing?
>
> What are the benefits of the private prison industry as opposed to government-run prisons? What are the negatives?
1. Because there is economic incentive to imprison people.
2. Yes.
3. No
4. Massive profits with little to no oversight and little or no repercussions for misconduct and/or malfeasance. (This is a positive to the people running the prison.)
5. Massive expenditures with little to no oversight and little or no repercussions for misconduct and/or malfeasance. (This is a negative for the taxpayers, the inmates and society in general.)
---
### Author:  [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/3 "2014-04-23T16:25:32Z")
It really is extraordinary - look at some of these charts:
> **[Incarceration in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States)**
>
> Incarceration in the United States is one of the primary means of punishment for crime in the United States. In 2021, over five million people were under supervision by the criminal justice system, with nearly two million people incarcerated in state or federal prisons and local jails. The United States has the largest known prison population in the world. It has 5% of the world’s population while having 20% of the world’s incarcerated persons. China, with more than four times more inhabita Dr...
> **[United States incarceration rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate)**
>
> The United States in 2022 had the fifth highest incarceration rate in the world, at 541 people per 100,000. Between 2019 and 2020, the United States saw a significant drop in the total number of incarcerations. State and federal prison and local jail incarcerations dropped by 14% from 2.1 million in 2019 to 1.8 million in mid-2020. The incarceration total has risen since then. In 2018, the United States had the highest incarceration rate in the world.
> While the United States represented about...
And this is, of course, set against a background of crime tumbling everywhere in the developed world since the early 80s.
Two significant factors:
[ul]
[li]The three strikes laws, and [/li][li]Average length of sentence in the US[/li][/ul]
> [@](#):
>
> Since 1990, the average length of prison sentences in the U.S. has increased by 36 percent
Lock 'em up for longer and the population increases.
On the industry:
> [@](#):
>
> While the United States represents about 5 percent of the world’s population, it houses around 25 percent of the world’s prisoners.[3][4] Imprisonment of America’s 2.3 million prisoners, costing $24,000 per inmate per year, and $5.1 billion in new prison construction, consumes $60.3 billion in budget expenditures.
---
### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/4 "2014-04-23T16:34:26Z")
Yep, my guess is that it is mostly about sentencing changes and being “tough on crime.” Mandatory minimums, longer penalties, and so on would certainly mean that the prison population can increase while crime goes down.
But I can’t the the life of me figure out how the OP thinks that privately run prisons is a factor here. Judges determine sentences, not the people who run prisons. Excepting a handful of very notable cases where judges have been corruptly sentencing people to a particular institution, how would private prisons have any relation at all to the overall prison population? I don’t get it.
---
### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/5 "2014-04-23T16:40:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> 1. Because there is economic incentive to imprison people.
>
> 2. Yes.
>
> 3. No
>
> 4. Massive profits with little to no oversight and little or no repercussions for misconduct and/or malfeasance. (This is a positive to the people running the prison.)
>
> 5. Massive expenditures with little to no oversight and little or no repercussions for misconduct and/or malfeasance. (This is a negative for the taxpayers, the inmates and society in general.)
Cite?
---
### Author:  [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/6 "2014-04-23T16:41:04Z")
Private prisons are a symptom of high incarceration rates, not its cause. Its cause is (chiefly) the war on drugs.
The war on drugs started in the early 70s ([War on drugs - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs)). Look at this graph of incarceration rates:
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/U.S.\_incarceration\_rates\_1925\_onwards.png](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png)
Private prisons as a significant phenomenon started in the mid 80s.
> **[Private prison | Development](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#Development_2)**
>
> Federal and state governments have a long history of contracting out specific services to private firms, including medical services, food preparation, vocational training, and inmate transportation. However, the 1980s ushered in a new era of prison privatization. With a burgeoning prison population resulting from the War on Drugs and increased use of incarceration, prison overcrowding and rising costs became increasingly problematic for local, state, and federal governments. In response to this e...
"Federal and state government has a long history of contracting out specific services to private firms, including medical services, food preparation, vocational training, and inmate transportation. The 1980s, though, ushered in a new era of prison privatization. With a burgeoning prison population resulting from the War on Drugs and increased use of incarceration, prison overcrowding and rising costs became increasingly problematic for local, state, and federal governments. In response to this expanding criminal justice system, private business interests saw an opportunity for expansion, and consequently, private-sector involvement in prisons moved from the simple contracting of services to contracting for the complete management and operation of entire prisons.[9]
The modern private prison business first emerged and established itself publicly in 1984 when the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) was awarded a contract to take over a facility in Hamilton County, Tennessee. This marked the first time that any government in the country had contracted out the complete operation of a jail to a private operator"
High incarceration rates are also a reaction to the rising crime rate in the 60s/70s which gave law & order its popularity which makes it difficult electorally to be in favor of reducing sentences but advantageous to be in favor of increasing them.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/7 "2014-04-23T16:41:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Yep, my guess is that it is mostly about sentencing changes and being “tough on crime.” Mandatory minimums, longer penalties, and so on would certainly mean that the prison population can increase while crime goes down.
>
> But I can’t the the life of me figure out how the OP thinks that privately run prisons is a factor here. Judges determine sentences, not the people who run prisons. Excepting a handful of very notable cases where judges have been corruptly sentencing people to a particular institution, how would private prisons have any relation at all to the overall prison population? I don’t get it.
Through heavy lobbying efforts judges that will lean towards more imprisonment are either chosen or elected.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/8 "2014-04-23T16:48:24Z")
[Private](http://seattlefreepress.org/2012/05/16/private-prisons-lobby-for-harsher-sentences/) [prison](http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/14/meet-the-private-prison-lobby/) [lobbying](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/01/1198564/-Indiana-Governor-Rewards-Private-Prison-Lobby-with-Draconian-Marijuana-Punishments#) [efforts](http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/tags/private-prison-lobby) are the cause, not the symptom.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/9 "2014-04-23T16:49:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Through heavy lobbying efforts judges that will lean towards more imprisonment are either chosen or elected.
That’s how I understand it. Some judges are good for business, and the ones that are good for business have a mighty industry on their side.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/10 "2014-04-23T16:51:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> That’s how I understand it. Some judges are good for business, and the ones that are good for business have a mighty industry on their side.
Not just judges-they pour money into efforts to lengthen sentences also.
---
### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/11 "2014-04-23T16:56:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I saw [this animation](http://i.imgur.com/sNJ7TVI.gif), which shows how much our prison population has been growing per capita over the last few decades. But crime has gone down pretty significantly, if I understand the statistics correctly.
[Devil’s advocate]
The people most likely to commit a crime are those who have already committed a crime in the past. Being in prison decreases a criminal’s ability to reoffend, and so _causes_ the reduction in crime, rather than being an unrelated statistic.
[/Devil’s advocate]
---
### Author:  [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/12 "2014-04-23T17:00:45Z")
There’s an interesting documentary, [The House I Live In](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2125653/?ref_=nv_sr_1), that talks about the issue, especially as it relates to the war on drugs. If you feel like getting more angry about the situation, I mean.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/13 "2014-04-23T17:01:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> [Devil’s advocate]
> The people most likely to commit a crime are those who have already committed a crime in the past. Being in prison decreases a criminal’s ability to reoffend, and so _causes_ the reduction in crime, rather than being an unrelated statistic.
> [/Devil’s advocate]
So if we were all sent to prison the crime rate would be zero.
---
### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/14 "2014-04-23T17:02:11Z")
Ravenman, when you have a private interest making millions off imprisoning people, you end up with a rich lobby group to push for mandatory minimums, longer penalties and stricter immigration policy.
> **[Private prison companies making big bucks on locking up undocumented...](https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/private-prison-companies-making-big-bucks-locking-undocumented-immigrants-article-1.1127465?print)**
>
> The U.S. is locking up more illegal immigrants than ever, generating lucrative profits for the nation’s largest prison companies.
---
### Author:  [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/15 "2014-04-23T17:05:51Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> [Devil’s advocate]
> The people most likely to commit a crime are those who have already committed a crime in the past. Being in prison decreases a criminal’s ability to reoffend, and so _causes_ the reduction in crime, rather than being an unrelated statistic.
> [/Devil’s advocate]
While a reasonable conjecture, there has also be a decrease in the crime rate in the rest of the industrialized world, which has much lower rates of incarceration than the US. That suggests that the incarceration rate is not driving the crime rate.
---
### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/16 "2014-04-23T17:45:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> Ravenman, when you have a private interest making millions off imprisoning people, you end up with a rich lobby group to push for mandatory minimums, longer penalties and stricter immigration policy.
Ah - I get it.
But even government run prisons are big business. Ever wonder why there’s five Federal prisons in West Virginia, including several rather new ones, in a state that was once legendary for pork?
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/17 "2014-04-23T17:48:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Ah - I get it.
>
> But even government run prisons are big business. Ever wonder why there’s five Federal prisons in West Virginia, including several rather new ones, in a state that was once legendary for pork?
Are you saying that the five federal prisons bring in more money than the state spent to build them and spends to maintain them?
---
### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/18 "2014-04-23T17:49:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Ah - I get it.
>
> But even government run prisons are big business. Ever wonder why there’s five Federal prisons in West Virginia, including several rather new ones, in a state that was once legendary for pork?
Oh no doubt it can be a job builder for politicians to score a prison build in their district. That’s just another thing to work against a rational-results oriented justice system.
---
### Author:  [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/19 "2014-04-23T17:51:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Are you saying that the five federal prisons bring in more money than the state spent to build them and spends to maintain them?
I must confess to ignorance about the details of prison funding but I was under the impression that money for the building and maintenance of _federal_ prisons comes chiefly from the federal government rather than the State, no?
If so, then the State can definitely be getting more money out of it than it put in.
---
### Author:  [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/20 "2014-04-23T17:55:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> Ravenman, when you have a private interest making millions off imprisoning people, you end up with a rich lobby group to push for mandatory minimums, longer penalties and stricter immigration policy.
I think this is correct. And these groups can use **fear** as their tool to carry out those goals.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771.md?page=2)