# Prison-industrial complex **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771 "2014-04-23T14:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/21 "2014-04-23T18:05:45Z")
Number of state and federal prisoners, in 2010, in government-run prisons: 1,389,909 Number of state and federal prisoners, in 2010, in private prisons: 119,566 The steepest rise in inmates [as a percentage of population](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png) was between 1980 and 2000, as a consequence of mandatory-minimum and war-on-drugs laws passed in the 1970’s and 1980’s. These developments occurred before private prisons housed even the small percentage of inmates that they do today. Private prison lobbying may be impeding roll-back of harsh sentencing laws. It was not a significant factor in adopting them. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/22 "2014-04-23T18:06:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you saying that the five federal prisons bring in more money than the state spent to build them and spends to maintain them? The state wouldn’t spend any money to build and maintain them. Federal prisons are paid for by the Federal government. But if you look at where prisons (in general) are located, they tend to be in depressed areas. That’s not just because you want prisons away from rich people: a prison brings with it many hundreds of jobs, which probably pay really well compared to working retail or similar employment. Absolutely, no question, prisons can be an economic benefit to its area. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/23 "2014-04-23T18:07:40Z")
People seem to forget that the penal system in the US goes in cycles. It alternates between being “softer” on criminals and then increasing punishments when there’s a public perception of too much crime. We are simply living in one of the “harder on crime” periods. What will end this won’t be a realization that human rights are being violated, but the cold economic calculations which will make it clear that states and the federal government simply can’t afford to maintain high levels of elderly felons in their systems. After all, prisoners in the US legally must have access to health care and the costs of that care are going to continue to increase even as state budgets become more constrained. In the state where I live, the lowest level of felons (Class D) are now supposed to be no longer housed in state prison, but in county-level jails. The state is doing this in part to satisfy federal court rulings about prison overcrowding, but also in part to shift the responsibility for these offenders health care off to the local levels. Private prisons aren’t going to solve this problem as they have the same constraints that public facilities do, plus they are more vulnerable to civil litigation if they fail to adequately house and care for prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/24 "2014-04-23T18:12:47Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > People seem to forget that the penal system in the US goes in cycles. It alternates between being “softer” on criminals and then increasing punishments when there’s a public perception of too much crime. We are simply living in one of the “harder on crime” periods. Have you got a cite that points out these cycles? All I’m seeing is a strong and steady rise since about 1975. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/25 "2014-04-23T18:55:02Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > People seem to forget that the penal system in the US goes in cycles. It alternates between being “softer” on criminals and then increasing punishments when there’s a public perception of too much crime. We are simply living in one of the “harder on crime” periods. > > What will end this won’t be a realization that human rights are being violated, but the cold economic calculations which will make it clear that states and the federal government simply can’t afford to maintain high levels of elderly felons in their systems. After all, prisoners in the US legally must have access to health care and the costs of that care are going to continue to increase even as state budgets become more constrained. > > In the state where I live, the lowest level of felons (Class D) are now supposed to be no longer housed in state prison, but in county-level jails. The state is doing this in part to satisfy federal court rulings about prison overcrowding, but also in part to shift the responsibility for these offenders health care off to the local levels. > > Private prisons aren’t going to solve this problem as they have the same constraints that public facilities do, plus they are more vulnerable to civil litigation if they fail to adequately house and care for prisoners. A cite has already been posted that debunks your assertion. While all things are cyclical, the prison population has not seen an increase this large, or sustained, going back to 1925. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/26 "2014-04-23T19:13:14Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Number of state and federal prisoners, in 2010, in government-run prisons: 1,389,909 > Number of state and federal prisoners, in 2010, in private prisons: 119,566 > > The steepest rise in inmates [as a percentage of population](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png) was between 1980 and 2000, as a consequence of mandatory-minimum and war-on-drugs laws passed in the 1970’s and 1980’s. These developments occurred before private prisons housed even the small percentage of inmates that they do today. > > Private prison lobbying may be impeding roll-back of harsh sentencing laws. It was not a significant factor in adopting them. There has been a massive expansion of incarcerating illegal immigrants that I don’t think you are factoring in here. Not sure if it’s discussed in the article I posted above or another I read this morning. I will double check when I am not posting from my phone. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/27 "2014-04-23T19:38:52Z")
> [@](#): > > After a decade of expansion, the sprawling, private system runs detention centers everywhere from a Denver suburb to an industrial area flanking Newark’s airport, and is largely controlled by just three companies. > > The growth is far from over, despite the sheer drop in illegal immigration in recent years. > > In 2011, nearly half the beds in the nation’s civil detention system were in private facilities with little federal oversight, up from just 10 percent a decade ago. from the article I linked above. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/28 "2014-04-23T21:05:09Z")
Yeah, but what do immigration detention centers have to do with the prison population? When the OP talks about the prison population, I’m pretty sure that’s a measure of people who have been convicted of crimes. I don’t think that would include people who are detained for immigration violations… so I don’ think that quote/cite is actually on the same topic as the rest of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/29 "2014-04-23T21:18:08Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Number of state and federal prisoners, in 2010, in government-run prisons: 1,389,909 > Number of state and federal prisoners, in 2010, in private prisons: 119,566 > > The steepest rise in inmates [as a percentage of population](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png) was between 1980 and 2000, as a consequence of mandatory-minimum and war-on-drugs laws passed in the 1970’s and 1980’s. These developments occurred before private prisons housed even the small percentage of inmates that they do today. > > Private prison lobbying may be impeding roll-back of harsh sentencing laws. It was not a significant factor in adopting them. I disagree. Mandatory sentencing laws created the market; CCA was created to exploit it. And based on what I know about Tom Beasley and T. Don Hutto, their first priority was to exploit the system. Their second priority was to exploit the system even more. Oh, and Tom Beasley had strong political connections (anyone remember Lamar Alexander? Don Sundquist? Ed Blank? Hubert McCullough?). Want proof that CCA intended to make obscene profits and do little else? [Here’s some: > [@](#): > > Declaring that “the market is limitless,” Beasley (age 43) hopes to “solve the prison problem and make a lot of money at the same time.” > [@](#): > > This year, the General Assembly, under the influence of nine full-time, high-powered CCA lobbyists paid an estimated $100,000, passed a more moderate privatization bill. Before the session Tom Beasley had said, “I intend to get a chunk of this system.” ]([http://beck.library.emory.edu/southernchanges/article.php?id=sc08-3\_011](http://beck.library.emory.edu/southernchanges/article.php?id=sc08-3_011)) T. Don Hutto, another founder of CCA, has a history that suggests he is far more interested in exploiting prisoners, and unlawfully punishing them, than anything else (from the same citeas above): > [@](#): > > The CCA’s executive vice-president’s career includes a stint as warden of the Ramsey Unit in Huntsville, Texas, in the 1960s, when the system of using inmates to guard and discipline other inmates, later outlawed in federal court, was “at its strongest,” according to the Texas Observer. A 1985 article in The Nation reported that during Hutto’s tenure as corrections commissioner in Arkansas the US Supreme Court ruled that state’s prison system unconstitutional and found that officials “evidently tried to operate their prisons at a profit.” “Inmates were required to work on prison farms ten hours a day, six days a week, often without suitable clothing or shoes, using mule-drawn plows and tending crops by hand…Punishment for minor misconduct included lashing with a wooden-handled leather strap…and administering electric shocks to ‘various sensitive parts of the inmate’s body.’ The trial court called the prisons ‘a dark and evil world completely alien to the free world.’” I admit I’m having a hard time finding clear evidence online of efforts by all these people to lobby for harsher sentences, but their connections and relations to others involved in sentencing efforts is clear and unambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/30 "2014-04-23T21:21:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > There has been a massive expansion of incarcerating illegal immigrants that I don’t think you are factoring in here. Not sure if it’s discussed in the article I posted above or another I read this morning. I will double check when I am not posting from my phone. Prolly a coincidence, but do you know how and when CCA got it’s start? ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/31 "2014-04-23T21:47:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you got a cite that points out these cycles? All I’m seeing is a strong and steady rise since about 1975. [Here’s one](http://http://www.anthemcollege.edu/criminal-justice-school/history-of-the-american-criminal-justice-system/) Torture, summary executions and corporal punishments have been removed from the US penal system as legal forms of punishment. That alone was a huge step forward as those treatments are still common in many nations around the world. [This](http://http://www.anthemcollege.edu/criminal-justice-school/history-of-the-american-criminal-justice-system/) explains the flow of prisoners through the system Most crimes are unsolved is the salient point which can be taken away from this. While prisons are now full, imagine how many more would have to be built if most offenders were incarcerated. [Here’s](http://http://criminology.fsu.edu/crimtheory/blomberg/american.html) a criminology study that shows prison got far more crowded when people got tired of recidivism and politicians started taking “get tough” attitudes. [Here’s](http://http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=48&ved=0CFcQFjAHOCg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cepr.net%2Fdocuments%2Fpublications%2Fincarceration-2010-06.pdf&ei=WTRYU6a5CoeyyASCx4HAAg&usg=AFQjCNFwzpHkAhHTLf73oTUR_jOvf8Cskw&bvm=bv.65397613,d.aWw) a .pdf which overs the high costs of incarceration While there has been an increase in incarceration, the health and assorted costs of keeping people incarcerated are growing, not shrinking, making it a less practical solution. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/32 "2014-04-23T21:51:03Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > A cite has already been posted that debunks your assertion. While all things are cyclical, the prison population has not seen an increase this large, or sustained, going back to 1925. That’s not an accurate statement. And an increase in population can easily explain an increase in the numbers of incarcerated people. The current population of the US is 2.5x that of 1925, so expecting a decrease in criminal activity would be, at best, very shortsighted. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/33 "2014-04-23T22:46:54Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > That’s not an accurate statement. > And an increase in population can easily explain an increase in the numbers of incarcerated people. > > The current population of the US is 2.5x that of 1925, so expecting a decrease in criminal activity would be, at best, very shortsighted. Have you seen this [graph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png). It was in one of the links you were referred to. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/34 "2014-04-23T23:07:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But crime has gone down pretty significantly, if I understand the statistics correctly. > > So why have prison populations grown so much? Because the crime rate was reduced by more incarceration and longer sentences. A significant portion of the persons prone to commit crimes cannot because they’re locked up. Too high a price to pay for a low crime rate, IMO, but we are getting what we pay for. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/35 "2014-04-23T23:14:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yeah, but what do immigration detention centers have to do with the prison population? When the OP talks about the prison population, I’m pretty sure that’s a measure of people who have been convicted of crimes. I don’t think that would include people who are detained for immigration violations… so I don’ think that quote/cite is actually on the same topic as the rest of this thread. I suppose, but the title of the thread is Prison-Industrial Complex of which detention centres certainly are part of. It’s a big part of their revenue. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/36 "2014-04-23T23:19:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because the crime rate was reduced by more incarceration and longer sentences. A significant portion of the persons prone to commit crimes cannot because they’re locked up. > > Too high a price to pay for a low crime rate, IMO, but we are getting what we pay for. While that may _seem_ logical it’s not factual. Crime rates have gone down and have been historically lower in many countries that don’t have the crazy incarceration rates of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/37 "2014-04-23T23:43:48Z")
So, the war on drugs seems to have created an environment where the private prison industry could emerge to serve an untapped market. Is there any change on the horizon with regard to the war on drugs, such as recent relaxing of marijuana laws in some states, that may have an impact on our incareration rates? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/38 "2014-04-23T23:56:05Z")
I don’t know. Seems like there isn’t any political will to remove 3 strikes, mandatory minimums or change the federal status of marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/39 "2014-04-24T00:13:19Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Private prisons are a symptom of high incarceration rates, not its cause. Its cause is (chiefly) the war on drugs. Aren’t most inmates in for non-drug-related crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/40 "2014-04-24T00:17:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But I can’t the the life of me figure out how the OP thinks that privately run prisons is a factor here. Judges determine sentences, not the people who run prisons. Excepting a handful of very notable cases where judges have been corruptly sentencing people to a particular institution, how would private prisons have any relation at all to the overall prison population? I don’t get it. It seems to me privatly run prisons will not benefit from rehabilitating prisoners. You want repeat customers, after all. If you can set up conditions that increase the recidivism rate, you will likly profit from it. Just speculating, but I would not be surprised to hear that reahbilitation is not the first priority in this system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771.md?page=3)