# Prison-industrial complex **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771 "2014-04-23T14:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/41 "2014-04-24T00:17:42Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > So, the war on drugs seems to have created an environment where the private prison industry could emerge to serve an untapped market. Is there any change on the horizon with regard to the war on drugs, such as recent relaxing of marijuana laws in some states, that may have an impact on our incareration rates? [Obama is planning clemency for hundreds, maybe thousands, of nonviolent drug offenders.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=721461) Of course, that only affects those in the federal system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/42 "2014-04-24T00:18:50Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > It seems to me privatly run prisons will not benefit from rehabilitating prisoners. You want repeat customers, after all. If you can set up conditions that increase the recidivism rate, you will likly profit from it. > > Just speculating, but I would not be surprised to hear that reahbilitation is not the first priority in this system. Was it ever a priority in the public prisons either? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/43 "2014-04-24T00:44:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Was it ever a priority in the public prisons either? Exactly - see, for example, Joe Arpiao. But it’s hard to tell whether a dysfunctional prison system is a product of design or stupidity. I tend to think that we should not assume evil genius when massive incompetence is an equally plausible explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/44 "2014-04-24T00:54:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Aren’t most inmates in for non-drug-related crimes? [Nope. > [@](#): > > Federal: On Dec. 31, 2012, there were 196,574 sentenced prisoners under federal jurisdiction. Of these, 99,426 were serving time for drug offenses, 11,688 for violent offenses, 11,568 for property offenses, and 72,519 for “public order” offenses (of which 23,700 were sentenced for immigration offenses, 30,046 for weapons offenses, and 17,633 for “other”). > > State: On Dec. 31, 2011, there were 1,341,797 sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction. Of these, 222,738 were serving time for drug offenses, of whom 55,013 were merely convicted for possession. There were also 717,861 serving time for violent offenses, 249,574 for property offenses, 142,230 for “public order” offenses (which include weapons, drunk driving, court offenses, commercialized vice, morals and decency offenses, liquor law violations, and other public-order offenses), and 9,392 for “other/unspecified”. ]([Drugs and Prisons, Jails, Probation, and Parole | Drug Policy Facts](http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs#sthash.zyOjnAAL.dpbs)) For the feds that comes to 99,426 serving drug offenses and 95,775 in for all other reasons. For the states that comes to 1,341,797 for drug offenses and 1,119,057 for all other reasons. Total is 1,441,223 for drug offenses and 1,214,832 for all other reasons. Incarceration for drugs wins! Incarceration for drugs wins!!! WOOT! We’re #1! We’re #1! We’re… fucking stupid with nearly every facet of our law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/45 "2014-04-24T01:02:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I saw [this animation](http://i.imgur.com/sNJ7TVI.gif), which shows how much our prison population has been growing per capita over the last few decades. But crime has gone down pretty significantly, if I understand the statistics correctly. > > So why have prison populations grown so much? A possibility that needs to be considered is the obvious one: prisons work. Imprisonment is supposed to have an effect on crime rates. Would you find it surprising if the number of hospitals increased and disease rates declined or if the number of schools increased and illiteracy rates declined? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/46 "2014-04-24T01:24:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Imprisonment is supposed to have an effect on crime rates. But I think that effect is a function of incarceration, not of rehabilitation nor deterrence. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/47 "2014-04-24T01:40:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A possibility that needs to be considered is the obvious one: prisons work. Imprisonment is supposed to have an effect on crime rates. Would you find it surprising if the number of hospitals increased and disease rates declined or if the number of schools increased and illiteracy rates declined? Except crime has fallen in nearly all first-world nations, even those without skyrocketing incarceration rates. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/48 "2014-04-24T02:04:16Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Except crime has fallen in nearly all first-world nations, even those without skyrocketing incarceration rates. While the economies have worsened. Why is **that,** I do wonder? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/49 "2014-04-24T02:59:25Z")
AFAICT, the private prisons (at least the publicly traded ones) handle non-violent offenders. Illegal immigrants and non-violent drug offenses account for the majority of these prisoners. The prisons can pay these prisoners waaay below minimum wage to do menial labor. When you watch these guys get off the bus in their jumpsuits to work for literally pennies a day it looks sorta racist because so many of these non-violent offenders are black and hispanic. I don’t think the private prisons are driving the high populations. Its mostly our drug and immigration laws and perhaps a racist skew in our justice system. Did you know that the average black man sentenced for a drug offence is sentenced to significantly more time than a white drug offender? Do you know why? Its because drug offenses in “school zones” carry higher sentences. In cities with high population density, the entire fucking city can be a school zone, not so out in the suburbs or rural areas. The school zone rule sounds fair and race neutral but in the zeal to protect kids from drugs, school zones have gone from 100 feet to from school grounds to 1000 feet from school grounds. School grounds include colleges and universities, video arcades, playgrounds, public pools… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/50 "2014-04-24T03:06:31Z")
Private prisons aren’t really a significant factor in the American prison system. Over 95% of prisoners in the United States are in government-run prisons. And they’re aren’t a lot of investors jumping into the business anymore. It turns out the profits are a lot lower than anticipated. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/51 "2014-04-24T03:39:56Z")
The profits aren’t that low for the construction industry that builds the prisons, the tech companies that supply the security systems or the people who provide various private labor to even the publicly run prisons. Besides there’s still a strong grocery store business despite low margins. People gotta eat. Also we need a large percentage of our populace in jail, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/52 "2014-04-24T09:44:20Z")
If this were Europe - just saying - there would also be a huge outcry on the public policy issue of criminalising such a swathe of your population: there is a point in a democracy at which laws loses credibility. Also, the life chances of those criminalised take a huge hit from which people do not recover. If anything the data looks like another indicator of the society being lost to democracy. Interesting to ponder why this level of incarceration hasn’t been an issue in the US especially, to reiterate the point, crime has been literally tumbling everywhere for 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/53 "2014-04-24T10:51:15Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > If this were Europe - just saying - there would also be a huge outcry on the public policy issue of criminalising such a swathe of your population: there is a point in a democracy at which laws loses credibility. Also, the life chances of those criminalised take a huge hit from which people do not recover. > > If anything the data looks like another indicator of the society being lost to democracy. > > Interesting to ponder why this level of incarceration hasn’t been an issue in the US especially, to reiterate the point, crime has been literally tumbling everywhere for 20 years. The US does have this issue. However, the US doesn’t focus on it because, unlike Europe where a culture dominates each sovereign nation, we have a swath of different mini-cultures throughout the US, most of which are centralized on certain aspects of local life. Most of these mini-cultures reprioritize people’s agendas based on what’s central to that local life. As you travel across this country, you’ll find the attitudes are very, very different than what’s painted at the national level. All Republicans, for instance, aren’t unibrow Neanderthals that worship the Sun. All Democrats, to oppose my previous example, aren’t hardcore socialists that worship at the altar of the antichrist. What is actually happening is that local issues are played up in each market with opposing view points on those local issues. Some markets are all about coal. Others about religion. Still others about being green. Inside of these markets other issues matter, but there is usually a central two to five issues to that market. Beyond these issues, you have a general disinterest with a lukewarm agree or disagree. For instance, a lot of people in Kentucky (chosen because that’s near where I am this week) would consider coal being a central issue to their state. Outside of that central issue (and a few related issues like climate change) you’ll have issues like abortion where the majority of people are basically “Meh. I support” or “Feh. I oppose.” You don’t get the vitriol and polarization that you’d get in other areas about abortion and since the central issue to their neck of the woods isn’t being addressed, people simply don’t focus on it. The national parties, however, are a conglomeration of all of these local issues with top-down central directives of “here’s the party line.” They take hard-line stances on many issues to allow their party participants to think that they stand for them, when, in reality, the party and those in it tend to be looking out for their continued employment most of all. The ones that are highly political about many subjects are the ones most likely to seek out and comment on topics that are of interest to them on the internet. In days past without an ubiquitous platform for long-reaching arguments, they might not even develop a strong opinion on it. But now you can go read a sensationalist blog and become a convert to some issue and start posting about it on every news article related to that issue. Thus, incarceration became toughened because of local issues in some populous areas that caused a “tough on crime!” wave to propagate through the political system. That wave of sentiment is in the middle of it’s dissipation phase, but it hasn’t reached critical mass in a lot of places, yet. But it is accelerating. Places such as Colorado and Washington state, for instance, have legalized recreational marijuana. Being the bleeding edge of that sort of decriminalization, other states will likely follow (unless CO and WA break down into anarchy, at least). As is often the case with the US, the local politics being reshaped will likely cause a reshaping of the national landscape. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/54 "2014-04-24T12:29:07Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > That’s not an accurate statement. > And an increase in population can easily explain an increase in the numbers of incarcerated people. > > The current population of the US is 2.5x that of 1925, so expecting a decrease in criminal activity would be, at best, very shortsighted. No, look at the graph again, that is incarceration rate per 100,000. That means it is scaled for population. It is an accurate statement. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/55 "2014-04-24T12:36:00Z")
**Farin** - Thanks for that, espeically about the localisation of issues. Also, I did notice the change in Colorado has been grassroots led, though the process included establishing medical marijuana - that step seems to have enabled what has subsequently happened. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/56 "2014-04-24T13:48:40Z")
This may also be seen in light of extensive surveillance systems, a very expensive military, and the use of both to control populations. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/57 "2014-04-24T14:06:13Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Interesting to ponder why this level of incarceration hasn’t been an issue in the US especially, to reiterate the point, crime has been literally tumbling everywhere for 20 years. There’s a feeling among many that if someone was found guilty of breaking the law then they deserve to be imprisoned. There are also people who believe that the tumbling crime rate is related to locking more criminals up and imprisoning them for a greater number of years. I don’t necessarily agree that the dropping crime rate is due to more incarcerations but it’s easy to see how that might be an attractive answer to some. Another thing to consider is that a lot of Americans are insulted from the prison system. I can’t think of a single one of my coworkers, friends, or immediate family members who have served time in prison. I only know one person who has been convicted of a felony and he avoided prison by pleading out. I only know of one coworker who was arrested on a domestic abuse charge and while I don’t know the outcome of the case it was socially and professionally embarrassing and he ended up resigning. There are, however, people for whom being arrested, going to jail, or serving a few years in prison is seen as a normal part of life. They’ve seen friends and family members arrested, known a few who did some time in prison, and just figure they’ll end up going at some point too. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/58 "2014-04-24T14:07:14Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > This may also be seen in light of extensive surveillance systems, a very expensive military, and the use of both to control populations. How is our very expensive military controlling the population? ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/59 "2014-04-24T14:34:30Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > This may also be seen in light of extensive surveillance systems, a very expensive military, and the use of both to control populations. Actually, no group is controlling anyone in the US. You are free to to do pretty much what you please. Criminals realize that fact at a very early age and that’s why they choose a life of crime. You can commit dozens or even hundreds of felonies before you ever attract the attention of the authorities. And even if you do, assuming that you are apprehended, it could be months or even years before you stand trial. Even then you may not be found guilty or you may simply take a plea bargain and end up with a sentence of “Time Served” and get streeted the same day or later that week. You then have to **voluntarily** report to a parole/probation officer who likely has between 50-200 deadheads like you and who will only get in your shit if you fail a drug test (maybe) or are arrested for committing other offenses. Even if you are violated for a parole/probation infraction, you’ll simply return to jail or prison for weeks or months rather than your full sentence, as prison overcrowding precludes the possibility of incarcerating most repeat offenders. You are then back on the street to start the whole cycle again. Are some people caught up unfairly in the prison system? Certainly. Many people with low Is, mental illnesses or who are simply drug addicts get caught up all the time. However, most of the people in prison **belong there**. They have committed multiple offenses and are only incarcerated for a minor fraction of them. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771/60 "2014-04-24T14:38:48Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > You can commit dozens or even hundreds of felonies before you ever attract the attention of the authorities. And even if you do, assuming that you are apprehended, it could be months or even years before you stand trial. Even then you may not be found guilty or you may simply take a plea bargain and end up with a sentence of “Time Served” and get streeted the same day or later that week. > > You then have to **voluntarily** report to a parole/probation officer who likely has between 50-200 deadheads like you and who will only get in your shit if you fail a drug test (maybe) or are arrested for committing other offenses. Even if you are violated for a parole/probation infraction, you’ll simply return to jail or prison for weeks or months rather than your full sentence, as prison overcrowding precludes the possibility of incarcerating most repeat offenders. > > You are then back on the street to start the whole cycle again. Wow, sounds awesome. I wonder why less people are choosing criminal careers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-industrial-complex/686771.md?page=4)