What should I infer from this given European socities imprison a fraction of their populations as compared with the US, and the US holds 25%of all the worlds prisoners from a base of 5% of the worlds population?
Is the US, for example, inherently a more criminal society?
Apparently, yes. Do you disagree?
European nations have smaller and less diverse populations than the US (Russia aside on the diversity portion) meaning that comparing them to much larger US isn’t practical.Also, drug laws are more lenient throughout Europe (again, except Russia) and the social safety nets are stronger. There’s less incentive to commit crimes.
The US isn’t “more criminal.”
It simply has a larger and more effective judicial system than nations with comparable or larger populations ( China,India, Brazil, Nigeria, Indonesia,etc). There are criminals strolling freely around those nations who would themselves be incarcerated if their judicial systems were not corrupt or rather ineffectual.
The odd part is why criminals bother to restrain themselves. They could commit numerous offenses daily and simply avoid capture to remain free. They should have learned this at an early age (their continued freedom should tell them this) and yet they seemingly never do.
Perhaps it’s no longer “fun” to do bad things when you know that there’s no real chance of your being apprehended for most of them. Maybe they push the envelope or press their luck until they are caught simply because it is no longer a challenge to do whatever you want when you want to do it.
Your comparison for the US is with developing nations. Like Nigeria. Apparently because they have large populations.
Did you see my point about 25% of the worlds prisoners and 5% of the population - that’s a reference to relativity. Here’s another way of putting it:
That’s 8 times more or 800% more, depending on how you like to present data.
Given you like similar size comparisons, you’ll note the population of western Europe is not dissimilar to that of the US.
So given the similarity in size between Europoe and the US, and your assertion the US is not more inherently criminal, what else might cause the US to imprison so many of its people?
So you seem to think crime is basically unpunished and all about getting your kicks, yet less and less people do it. There’s another possibility: you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.
The big issue is probably the criminalization of drugs in the United States. About half the people in prison are there for drug crimes or for a crime they committed because drugs are illegal.
Assuming the numbers further up are correct, that would imply that with no arrests due to drugs, the US still imprisons 4x as many people as Europe -including Europes drug imprisonments.
That is still a significant gap.
But don’t three-strike laws make it hard to separate drug imprisonments from non-drug imprisonments? If you’ve been in trouble for drugs twice, and then the third time you get caught stealing, is your imprisonment considered drug-related?
(BOLDING MINE)
Finally! I’m so glad you now agree and admit it. If the US had stronger social safety nets, like they do in Europe, and drug laws were more lenient, as they are in Europe, then there would be less incentive to commit crime in the US. And isn’t that what we want, after-all? A populace that has few incentives to commit crime?
I’m not twisting your words, mind you, I’m simply rephrasing what you just said. :smack:
Changes as such are common in the US. Most state laws, even some of the “Basic” ones vary. As variations find success, that “flavor” gets adopted by more states. Some laws vary based on general philosophy of the populace or of those elected to office.
It’s a fairly complex regulatory landscape.
It’s because Prison is deeply ingrained into the US as the only way to punish. Caught with a single joint of marijuana? Jail. And these sorts of laws were driven by the war on drugs.
So, while there are laws against marijuana in Europe, they are variously overlooked depending on social norms. In the US, a police office is not likely to look the other way for any infraction, as it’ll get them fired or even sued for dereliction. A DA is unlikely to not prosecute because not only do they count all plea bargains as “success” they will similarly be called “soft on crime” and a personable new runner can take the vote and get into office on those charges. Judges, in a lot of places elected, face the same pressure.
Thus, the three components of a judicial system that are theoretically given the right to give a stern talking to a citizen and then a kick in the britches are disincentivized from letting anyone off the hook, ever.
The growing adversarial attitude of those same positions, as they see themselves as the “vanguard” against disorder in a lot of cases, against those that are arrested is also contributing to a growing split. People are less likely to talk to police, making their job harder, which makes them cling even tighter to those they do find on their own.
It’s another complex situation.
Meanwhile, George W. Bush holds exhibitions of his paintings and Goldman Sachs hand out bigger bonuses.
But I digress.
Violent crime and property crime has been tumbling for 20 years. Drug offenses have remained fairly level while the laws have gotten increasingly stricter. It doesn’t cause a huge outcry because whites and blacks live in different worlds unless something outrageous happens like the Birmingham church bombing that killed 4 girls
No its not. WFT!!?!??
About 50% of prisoners in state prisons are there for non-violent crimes (mostly drug related).
About 90% of federal prisoners are in prison for non-violent crimes (mostly drug related).
I don’t know what you mean by “minor fraction” but FBI data on reported crimes says that the 62% of murders, 55% of aggravated assaults are solved, 40% of rapes are solved, and 28% of robberies are solved.
Between 10 and 25% of non-violent property crimes are solved.
Are these the numbers you had in mind when you said “minor fraction” Or did you mean that criminals THINK that the numbers are alot smaller than this?
Most three strikes laws require a violent crime or a serious felony to be considered a “strike”
Its easy to stay on the right side of the law if you get to write the laws.
Didn’t know that, thanks. Ignorance fought 
No need to assume. There’s a link to the website I got them from, and a credit to the DOJ report that the numbers came from at that link. They’re accurate.
I missed the edit window, but in case anyone actually does doubt the veracity of my post on incarceration numbers, here’s a link to the actual report (WARNING!: .pdf!).
I certainly don’t have any idea what YOU are talking about.
That’s something that we share.
And yes, people do commit crimes because they enjoy it. Some do so out economic need; but the majority of people make a consistent and conscious decisions to commit criminal acts. It’s not as if they are given limited choices and criminality is the one which presents the best options.
They commit crimes, they see that they receive little or no punishment for it and they repeat Step 1. Most never get caught (if they were, the problems of jail and prison overcrowding would be so staggering that enough jails couldn’t be built) and the statistics show that the majority of those who are simply become recidivists usually because of their substance abuse issues or because (wait for it) they are just bad people.
Not certain what part of Disneyland that you call home, but where I’m from and where I live I see that the same people commit the majority of crimes and many never spend any serious time in jail for their offenses. If you don’t believe me ( and frankly, I don’t care if you do) leave your front door open for a few days and see if the police are able to catch the eventual burglars.
[quote=“Damuri_Ajashi, post:73, topic:686771”]
Violent crime and property crime has been tumbling for 20 years. Drug offenses have remained fairly level while the laws have gotten increasingly stricter. It doesn’t cause a huge outcry because whites and blacks live in different worlds unless something outrageous happens like the Birmingham church bombing that killed 4 girls
No its not. WFT!!?!??
You do realize that you actually have to be CAUGHT to go to jail or prison? Most criminals commit dozens or hundreds of criminal offenses (each time they sell drugs, that’s a felony for example) before they are caught. They also commit crimes while incarcerated ( selling drugs and scamming people on the outside to send you money are also felonies).
Look in your daily papers police blotter. The majority of offenses on that blotter will never be solved. The burglaries, assaults,frauds and sex crimes (those which are even reported) will documented by the local,state or federal authorities until either the offender is caught in the act, until offender admits their guilt or evidence is found that links an offender to those crimes.
Statistics are largely meaningless as, again, they strictly document REPORTED crimes.
if one so inclined looks close enough - that is scrutinizes (you all remember him) in a manner particularly vehement as gauged on their own standards. Then all of us humans will fall short – as will the scrutinizer.
or so it would seem to this lowly life form
Are you serious? You’re counting fraud that occurs between prisoners in prison in a conversation about incarceration where you are saying that people aren’t being incarcerated enough?
Selling drugs is neither a violent crime nor a property crime. If you were largely talking about drug offenses then, sure I agree with you. Your didn’t sound like you were talking about selling drugs.
Yeah, but yous aid that these guys commit dozens or hundreds of felonies without attracting the attention of the authorities. If you were treating each act of selling drugs as an offense then that would be true. But if you were talking about violent crimes or property crimes, you would be very very wrong.
And the vast majority of violent crimes are reported and property crimes also get reported at high rates. Of course a criminal sale of a joint between consenting adults is not frequently reported so once again, you must be talking about drug offenses.