# Prison is for punishing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2006, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483 "2006-09-28T12:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/41 "2006-10-09T19:36:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Once you have someone in prison he is a known. You make money every day he stays. That is incentive to extending their time. > We miss one point. drugs. If we got substance abuse traininng in prison it would be helpful. We spend tons in inforcement ,but neglect rehab. Outside of prison ,we have a shortage of alcohol and drug programs. This would be the area to attack. Who’s making money by having inmates stay in prison? The government is paying for their imprisonment and nobody’s reimbursing the government for that money. Sure, the government collects taxes to pay for prisons but they’d collect taxes anyway. You could just as easily say the government is “making money” by running schools. As for rehabilitation, any prisoner that manages to get through prison without being offered - and in most cases required - to participate in rehab must be in a coma. There’s probably more rehab programs at Attica than there are at the Betty Ford clinic. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/42 "2006-10-09T20:31:37Z")
Privatized prisons do. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/43 "2006-10-09T20:32:24Z")
Privatized prisons do.They will eliminate every program they possibly can to improve profits. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/44 "2006-10-09T21:55:54Z")
There is no moral component to punishment itself. If punishment is an end rather than a means, something has gone quite wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/45 "2006-10-09T22:19:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Privatized prisons do. Don’t generalize. Privatized prisons are not average prisons. Most prisons have been and continue to be run by the government. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/46 "2006-10-09T22:24:35Z")
And now that I think about it, your original claim makes no sense for privatized prisons either. Prisons, privatized or not, do not determine the amount of prisoners they have or how long their sentences are; the court system does that. And the court system is under government control. So the government controls how many prisoners there are and pays privatized prisons more money if there is an increase in prisoners or sentence lengths. So if money was the main consideration in incarceration, you’d see fewer prisoners serving shorter sentences so the government would be able to spend less money. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/47 "2006-10-09T22:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] So if money was the main consideration in incarceration, you’d see fewer prisoners serving shorter sentences so the government would be able to spend less money. [/QUOTE] Well, you’re assuming the government actually tries to spend less money. Perhaps the influence of lobbyists who want to see more money spent on private prisons is greater (in the circles where it matters) than the influence of small-government types? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/48 "2006-10-10T00:19:25Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] And now that I think about it, your original claim makes no sense for privatized prisons either. Prisons, privatized or not, do not determine the amount of prisoners they have or how long their sentences are; the court system does that. And the court system is under government control. So the government controls how many prisoners there are and pays privatized prisons more money if there is an increase in prisoners or sentence lengths. So if money was the main consideration in incarceration, you’d see fewer prisoners serving shorter sentences so the government would be able to spend less money. [/QUOTE] What? Did you actually think this through? 1. The government cares about spending less money on prisons? Increasing funds for things like prisons and fighting crime is the one easy political expenditure. 2. Prisons CAN reduce the number of prisoners they have by doing a good job reducing recidivism. However, if they make money per prisoner, they have exactly the opposite incentive. 3. The ACTUAL length of a prison sentence is quite variable based on how things go in the prison. Even heard of getting time off for good behavior, or a little something called parole, in which prisons themselves have no small amount of say? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/49 "2006-10-10T01:03:52Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] And now that I think about it, your original claim makes no sense for privatized prisons either. Prisons, privatized or not, do not determine the amount of prisoners they have or how long their sentences are; the court system does that. And the court system is under government control. So the government controls how many prisoners there are and pays privatized prisons more money if there is an increase in prisoners or sentence lengths. So if money was the main consideration in incarceration, you’d see fewer prisoners serving shorter sentences so the government would be able to spend less money. [/QUOTE] Not correct. I saw a study on tv where in prisons for juviniles had longer sentances. The good behavior thing is one component. They also have some ability to claim the individual has not made leaps toward citizenhip. More and more are serving max times. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/50 "2006-10-10T01:22:04Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] And now that I think about it, your original claim makes no sense for privatized prisons either. Prisons, privatized or not, do not determine the amount of prisoners they have or how long their sentences are; the court system does that. And the court system is under government control. So the government controls how many prisoners there are and pays privatized prisons more money if there is an increase in prisoners or sentence lengths. So if money was the main consideration in incarceration, you’d see fewer prisoners serving shorter sentences so the government would be able to spend less money. [/QUOTE] Not correct. I saw a study on tv where in prisons for juviniles had longer sentances. The good behavior thing is one component. They also have some ability to claim the individual has not made leaps toward citizenhip. More and more are serving max times. If you want to do good in prison,get them drug help. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/51 "2006-10-10T01:47:49Z")
From 1975-85 the serious crime rate rate dropped by 14.2 % .However our prison population doubled. We have a greter percent of our population in jail than any other advanced country, Do you suppose it is because we as a sosiety are more evil. ---
**Author:** ![FelixKat930](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@FelixKat930](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FelixKat930)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/52 "2006-10-10T01:54:07Z")
> [@](#): > > IMO we should be trying different methods on people who steal or do drugs than on people who commit assault, rape and murder. Agreed. Like segregate them. I really think that ALL rapists should be automaticly sent to a center for the sexually dangerous…for a LONG TIME too! I also think maybe for rapists there should be psychological testing to see if they have sociopath tendancies or Asperger’s tendancies. I have to say that I think a lot of rapists almost seem to have Asperger’s. They totally have no clue what they did was wrong! The ones that don’t have Asperger’s or sociopath tendancies need to undergo MAJOR counseling for their anger and control issues. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/53 "2006-10-10T03:20:25Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] 1. The government cares about spending less money on prisons? Increasing funds for things like prisons and fighting crime is the one easy political expenditure. [/quote] The government does care about prison expenditures. In fact, it’s often one of the first budget items cut when times get tough. _Police_ funding is the issue which is popular with the public. Whenever a politician starts talking about increasing the correction’s department budget, people start grousing about inmates having TVs and recreational equipment. (Even though taxpayer dollars don’t fund such things.) People don’t want to pay for prisons. > [@](#): > > 1. The ACTUAL length of a prison sentence is quite variable based on how things go in the prison. Even heard of getting time off for good behavior, or a little something called parole, in which prisons themselves have no small amount of say? A lot of that has been phased out. Quite a few states now have flat-time sentencing. Instead of “twelve to twenty-five” an offender gets a definite sentence of a certain number of years with no time shaved for good behavior and no early parole. I’m not a big fan of these laws because of the removal of judicial discretion and the fact that no parole equals no supervision after release. In the past, an inmate’s behavior while incarcerated affected his chances for release but now, unless criminal charges are filed there are few repercussions for bad behavior while in prison. **FelixKat930,** who do you suggest should pay for these sex offender treatment facilities? Where do you suggest they should be located? (Few communities want such a place near their children.) And how would you deal with the fact that increasing sentences would lead to more offenders being acquitted? > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > 1. If we don’t put them in prison, they will hurt people who are not in prison (like you and me). > > 2. If we put them in prison, they will hurt people in prison. > > So take a pick… would you prefer #1 or #2? > > I choose #2. It is the lesser of two evils. You forget: they will also hurt people who work in the prison. That’s people like **Quadop** and my Hubby, and a bunch of other folks who are just like you and me. These folks have a duty to try to protect the other inmates, which means that if there’s a fight, they have to break it up and they can get hurt as well. And not all people in prison are violent felons. There are check-kiters, car thieves, drug offenders and other people who broke the law but aren’t out-and-out _evil._ I’m just sayin’ . . . ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/54 "2006-10-10T03:57:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The ACTUAL length of a prison sentence is quite variable based on how things go in the prison. Even heard of getting time off for good behavior, or a little something called parole, in which prisons themselves have no small amount of say? Yes, I am passingly familiar with these and other prison-related concepts. > [@](#): > > From 1975-85 the serious crime rate rate dropped by 14.2 % .However our prison population doubled. We have a greter percent of our population in jail than any other advanced country, Do you suppose it is because we as a sosiety are more evil. This is called cause and effect. People claimed that if locked up criminals were locked up, the crime rate would go down. They were and it did. As plans go, it was a good one. So if you have an alternative plan, you better have some amazingly convincing evidence to support it. > [@](#): > > Well, you’re assuming the government actually tries to spend less money. Perhaps the influence of lobbyists who want to see more money spent on private prisons is greater (in the circles where it matters) than the influence of small-government types? > [@](#): > > The government cares about spending less money on prisons? Increasing funds for things like prisons and fighting crime is the one easy political expenditure. You guys seem to feel that the government operates on profits and losses - it doesn’t. The cost to the government of a prison with 50 inmates is exactly the same as the cost of a prison with 500 inmates or one with 5000 inmates - effectively zero. Because the government isn’t spending its own money, it’s spending yours. If expenses go up or down, they just collect more or fewer taxes. But it has no effect on the government itself. Answer this question. If the government decided to put a thousand more inmates in Attica prison next week, who exactly do you think would benefit from this? The guards? They’d just be working harder for the same amount of money. The warden? He wouldn’t get anything out it but more problems. The commissioner or the governor or some legislator? Their salaries are all fixed by law and they won’t make a cent off the deal. Maybe you figure they’ll collect under the table in bribes. Then tell me who’s going to be offering bribe money and why would they do it? Who exactly is the person you think is making money by keeping people in prison? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/55 "2006-10-11T17:46:32Z")
Private prisons do. However increasing the prison population does give more power to those in the field. Beaurocracies feed on themslves. Fact is to increase jails on be tough on crime is a political winner. Even if crime drops ,claiming your tough attitude is the reason. Simple but not necessarily true. Drug offenders ,especially weed users, should be separated. The hard core druggie should be given drug assistance to end dependence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483/56 "2006-10-11T22:13:02Z")
Being as you keep saying the same thing, I’ll keep my answers short. > [@](#): > > Private prisons do. No, they don’t. > [@](#): > > However increasing the prison population does give more power to those in the field. No, it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Beaurocracies feed on themslves. No, they don’t. > [@](#): > > Fact is to increase jails on be tough on crime is a political winner. Then complain about living in a democracy. > [@](#): > > Even if crime drops ,claiming your tough attitude is the reason. Simple but not necessarily true. We’re still waiting for your alternative. > [@](#): > > Drug offenders ,especially weed users, should be separated. They are. > [@](#): > > The hard core druggie should be given drug assistance to end dependence. They are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-is-for-punishing/374483.md?page=2)