# Prison Sentence in Germany for Holocaust Denial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715 "2009-02-27T20:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/61 "2009-03-02T18:58:35Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > This is no more a free speech issue than the publication of child pornography. The two are not comparable since the one concerns ideas, the other actual living human beings. Ideas should not be protected by law, humans to some extend should. Protecting ideas – in this case religion - is what they are trying to do at the upcoming scandal called Durban II. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/62 "2009-03-02T19:28:46Z")
The main problem I see with denial laws is “mission creep”. You start out with a reasonable mission, trying to stop some Junior Nazi from whipping up a crowd to Krystalnacht II. Stopping an immediate present danger. Germans did that with laws against incitement to riot in the name of Nazism. Soon, however, the part about whipping up a crowd gets lost. The idea of immediate present danger is left out of the laws. Soon, it’s a law against the idea of denial itself, whether there’s anyone getting whipped up or not. Then it spreads beyond denial. Soon it’s illegal to “minimize” or “trivialize” or “justify” or “diminish the proportions of” or “put in doubt” the killings. No one has even had the nerve to try to explain to me what is outlawed and what is not under that fantastically broad rubric. The next step is obvious, with the EU stating: [QUOTE=Some Legal Genius in Brussels] Member States may choose to punish only conduct which is either carried out in a manner likely to disturb public order or which is threatening, abusive or insulting. [/QUOTE] So now, what started out as a way to stop a resurgence of Nazism from disturbing public order, has morphed into the ultimate nanny state, where insulting somebody is a crime. I’m assuming that Polish jokes will be illegal, rather than just moronic and insulting, under your new overlords … So under that directive, if I say “My daughter is dating a black guy, but I don’t like the way he smells” … have I committed a crime? Black people smell different than white people. I like the smell myself, but some folks don’t. But if you say “black people smell funny”, you’ll stand a chance at least of breaking a law for merely stating a truth. A law starting out to ban lies ends up able to ban the truth … humans are strange creatures, no doubt about it. Man, I’m not surprised the Muslims have the Eurofolk whupped into a lather… the Europersons have no problem caving into the Islamic Thought Police, because they are used to caving in to their own Thought Police. They’re accustomed to losing the freedom to speak their minds. Makes perfect sense to them that insulting the Prophet should be illegal, can’t just insult somebody, you know, it might be, well, insulting or something. And someone might end up, you know, insulted or something. Gotta stop that insulting behavior and let the totalitarian Muslims have their way, can’t insult the Prophet or the totalitarian Nazis might take over Europe again, after all that’s why they need these Denial laws … ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/63 "2009-03-02T19:41:10Z")
> [@puppygod](#): > > With such differences in experiences, it’s natural that American point of view is more detached, and maybe even somewhat philosophical. For Europeans - it’s personal. I’m European, and I’ve got a certain degree of past involvement in anti-fascist activis. While Britain did not suffer to the extent of Poland, it certainly saw some of the effects of Naziism. And I think these laws are wrongheaded. I like the odious little scum out in the open. It makes it easier to know whose house to burn down (I kid, I kid). But, in the end, if Germany chooses to have these laws, or if Poland chooses to have them, well it isn’t really my business. I hope never to see them in my adopted country (the U.S.). ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/64 "2009-03-02T20:37:48Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Man, I’m not surprised the Muslims have the Eurofolk whupped into a lather… the Europersons have no problem caving into the Islamic Thought Police, because they are used to caving in to their own Thought Police. They’re accustomed to losing the freedom to speak their minds. Makes perfect sense to them that insulting the Prophet should be illegal, can’t just insult somebody, you know, it might be, well, insulting or something. And someone might end up, you know, insulted or something. Gotta stop that insulting behavior and let the totalitarian Muslims have their way, can’t insult the Prophet or the totalitarian Nazis might take over Europe again, after all that’s why they need these Denial laws … Is that how it is, because I seem to recall a near total chicken out of US media and US leadership during the Muhammed cartoon crisis, whereas many newspapers and television stations in many European countries chose to publish them and the political establishment largely chose to support free speech. And when a larger US media dared to publish them, it was as on the CNN in a pixilated form. Pathetic. And just a few months ago an author had to go to Europe to publish a historic novel about one of Muhammad’s wives after the US publisher had chickened out. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/65 "2009-03-02T20:55:40Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Is that how it is, because I seem to recall a near total chicken out of US media and US leadership during the Muhammed cartoon crisis, whereas many newspapers and television stations in many European countries chose to publish them and the political establishment largely chose to support free speech. And when a larger US media dared to publish them, it was as on the CNN in a pixilated form. Pathetic. And just a few months ago an author had to go to Europe to publish a historic novel about one of Muhammad’s wives after the US publisher had chickened out. Couldn’t agree more. The US wimped out pathetically on that issue, with most papers refusing to print the cartoons. Goes to show … you don’t need to have anti-Denial laws to cave in to totalitarians … However, anti-Denial laws give you bonus points, and they prepare you for having your rights curtailed. In the US, the cartoons were merely dangerous. Some newspapers refused to print them because their employees were threatened … kinda understandable. Under the EU directive, on the other hand, the cartoons could be considered illegal because they offended someone … can’t have that. w. PS - Only a very few papers in Europe printed the cartoons, it wasn’t “many” as you claim. I recall three … might have been a few more. Nor did the European “political establishment” support free speech. A few did. Most didn’t, most advocated “be nice, don’t offend” … ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/66 "2009-03-02T20:55:56Z")
..incidentally > [@](#): > > **Rejection of USSR’s victory in WWII should be punishable, Russian minister says** > > Sergey Shoigu, the head of Russia’s EMERCOM, put forward a suggestion to pass the law that would stipulate criminal responsibility for rejecting USSR’s victory in the Great Patriotic War, Itar-Tass news agency reports. > “I believe that our parliament needs to pass the law that would stipulate criminal responsibility for those denying the victory of the USSR in the Great Patriotic War,” Shoigu said. > > The minister stressed out that there was a number of countries on the post-Soviet space that reject both the results of the Great Patriotic War and the deeds of the Soviet nation in it. The law, the official added, would allow to protect Russia’s history. > > “The presidents of several countries who deny that would not be able to come to our country unpunished, and the mayors of several towns would think twice before they decide to dismantle monuments [to Soviet warriors],” he added. [Rejection of USSR’s victory in WWII should be punishable, Russian minister says](http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/26-02-2009/107154-ussr_victory_world_war-0) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/67 "2009-03-02T21:21:46Z")
> [@intention](#): > > PS - Only a very few papers in Europe printed the cartoons, it wasn’t “many” as you claim. I recall three … might have been a few more. Nor did the European “political establishment” support free speech. A few did. Most didn’t, most advocated “be nice, don’t offend” … I don’t know about the rest of Europe, but in Denmark everything that could walk and crawl of newspapers and television channels published the cartoons – most of them several times. And in fact are still doing it occasionally. Also newspapers on the tiny Danish areas of Faeroe Islands and Greenland. Many more than 3. And I think I recall the EU actually (and quite surprisingly) standing up for Denmark, and threatening countries in the Middle East that talked of boycotts. But of course, religious cartoons is the sort of thing many people will have prohibited on the same ground as the holocaust denial. In fact precisely the laws against holocaust denial was used by countries in the Middle East as examples of what they saw as European hypocrisy (and leading to Iran hosting a holocaust cartoon show). Although, as I keep pointing out to people when I hear that argument, holocaust denial and all sorts of Nazi and communist symbolism is quite legal in Denmark. And for some reason, Denmark have practically none of the problems with neo-nazism which some of the surrounding countries with laws against neo-nazism, have. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/68 "2009-03-02T21:23:37Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Couldn’t agree more. The US wimped out pathetically on that issue, with most papers refusing to print the cartoons. Goes to show … you don’t need to have anti-Denial laws to cave in to totalitarians … That’s not the US whimping out pathetically, that is private, for profit companies (arguably) whimping out pathetically. Unless there was pressure from the government not to print, that is. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/69 "2009-03-02T21:41:41Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I decide. And you decide. And millions of other decent people, just like you and me. > In fact, it’s the same people who decided that child porn is illegal. > Remember, child porn isn’t illegal everywhere (there are no laws against it in India, and the wise men of ancient Greek didn’t object too much). But you and I both know that it is too disgusting to be allowed into the realm of public discussion, right? Umm … well … no, it’s not kept out of public discussion, at least on my planet. What gave you that idea? We can discuss child pornography all we want. That’s the point. Child porn is illegal, just like killing people in gas chambers is illegal. Why do you advocate restricting discussion of one, but not the other? > [@chappachula](#): > > so would you argree that "first they came for child porn collectors, but I wasnt one, so I didn’t speak out… > There are logical limits to everything.Society is held together by common decency. > > Some ideas are simply beyond the realm of decency. And we know which ones, because the people who wielded those ideas built gas chambers with them. Well, lets follow that logic a bit … the people who built the gas chambers were good, god-fearing Christians, went to church and all … so the gas chambers were built by people wielding, inter alia, Christianity. Gotta put a quick stop to that pernicious idea, we know it’s wrong because the people who built the gas chambers were Christians, that proves it, chappachula said so … here’s three statements, tell me why two are wrong and one is right: 1. Nazis built the gas chambers, so we know that Nazi ideas are beyond the realm of decency. 2. Christians built the gas chambers, so we know that Christian ideas are beyond the realm of decency. 3. Germans built the gas chambers, so we know that German ideas are beyond the realm of decency. I also question whether _“society is held together by common decency”_ as you claim. In my experience, “common decency” is much like “common sense”, in that both are quite uncommon. Society is held together (or split apart) by laws that govern peoples actions. Take away the laws, and you’ll see how much “common decency” can hold society together. After all, good, common, decent, Christian German folks brought us the joys of the Holocaust … Finally, you say _“Some ideas are simply beyond the realm of decency”._ I agree. To me, restricting people’s right of free speech is simply beyond the realm of decency … what do we do then? As with many things, my “simply beyond the realm of decency” is your “perfectly acceptable”. So I fear your “common decency” yardstick is not up to the task of measuring what you claim it can measure. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/70 "2009-03-02T22:42:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I don’t know about the rest of Europe, but in Denmark everything that could walk and crawl of newspapers and television channels published the cartoons – most of them several times. And in fact are still doing it occasionally. Also newspapers on the tiny Danish areas of Faeroe Islands and Greenland. Many more than 3. And I think I recall the EU actually (and quite surprisingly) standing up for Denmark, and threatening countries in the Middle East that talked of boycotts. > > But of course, religious cartoons is the sort of thing many people will have prohibited on the same ground as the holocaust denial. In fact precisely the laws against holocaust denial was used by countries in the Middle East as examples of what they saw as European hypocrisy (and leading to Iran hosting a holocaust cartoon show). Although, as I keep pointing out to people when I hear that argument, holocaust denial and all sorts of Nazi and communist symbolism is quite legal in Denmark. And for some reason, Denmark have practically none of the problems with neo-nazism which some of the surrounding countries with laws against neo-nazism, have. **Rune** , excellent points all. Denmark was certainly the exception, gold stars to the Danes (again) for their principled stand. I’m a cartoonist myself, and in honor of the twelve Danish cartoonists, I drew [twelve cartoons](http://homepage.mac.com/williseschenbach/.Public/Interview_With_The_Prophet.pdf) of Muhammed myself (warning, may offend, may be illegal in parts of Europe). So I greatly appreciate the Danish integrity in this matter. Unfortunately, the Muslims were right about European hypocrisy. You can’t claim to allow freedom of speech unless you really do allow it. European censorship of Nazi ideas is identical to the Muslims desired censorship of cartoons, and the Muslims know it and use that fact to their advantage. Eurofolk, how is it the Danes don’t criminalize discussion of the Nazis, and yet they haven’t been over-run by the much-feared Nazi restoration which you claim is being prevented by censorship? ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/71 "2009-03-02T22:54:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > That’s not the US whimping out pathetically, that is private, for profit companies (arguably) whimping out pathetically. Unless there was pressure from the government not to print, that is. Thanks for the clarification, you are correct. However, I also felt that the Government should have made a strong policy statement on the issue of free speech, and they didn’t. Instead, they reiterated some variety of “let’s be nice, now, don’t offend anyone” … as if the issues were not death threats and riots and killings, as if the big issue was that somebody got offended. Hey, I was offended that Muslims were making and carrying out death threats … but that didn’t count with the US Gov’t, they wanted to protect the oh-so-delicate Muslim sensibilities from any possibility that they might be offended. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/72 "2009-03-02T23:04:37Z")
On the Danish cartoons issue, remember that the controversy was stoked by self-interested Imams who used all sorts of other material, too - [Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#Danish_Imams_tour_the_Middle_East) ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/73 "2009-03-03T02:40:46Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Few if any of those statements come within the scope of the law and quite frankly, they are a somewhat bizarre mish-mash. You persistently, to the point I can only assume it is deliberate, equate Holocaust Denial with debate over details. > > holocaust Denial does nothing to enhance the study of history. Quite the opposite. I’m perfectly happy with laws that ban such inflammatory hate speak concerning genocide. > > I think you also have a somewhat naive view of history. The Armenian Genocide is a point in fact. It is an indisputable fact but is being whitewashed through State Denial. > > As centuries pass things fade and blur as historical revisionists build careers. > > You can see it in the pathetic right-wing attempts to rewrite the Great Depression. > > The origins of the First World War are still debated. > > Hell - even now the Serbs (who in my opinion are a nation of unrepentant war criminals who should have the same level of collective guilt as the post-war Germans) deny their own genocide and that was only 15 years or so ago. > > And Holocaust Deniers want to do they same thing. They are not debating the Holocaust. The law does not prevent that. They are fascists wanting to drag Europe back into that awful period. > > Stalin is coming back into fashion. > > And all your rhetoric about ‘freedom’ is just that. Rhetoric and histrionic rhetoric at that. > > you also completely ignore the fact that laws have to applied through courts and so moderated by citizen common sense. > > Serbia Turkey and Germany NEED laws that keeps their collective crimes stuffed in their face. Only one of those three acknowledge their guilt and that is the one concerning Holocaust Denial. I’d add Russia and China to that list. And Indonesia. > > This is no more a free speech issue than the publication of child pornography. Oh my God, do you mean to tell me they’re still debating the causes of the First World War? Say it isn’t so! Are you sure? That’s horrible, let’s put a stop to that. And if we can see this pernicious tendency to think about history “in the pathetic right-wing attempts to rewrite the Great Depression”, let’s ban that as well. And we could ban any attempt to “minimize” Stalin’s crimes while we’re at it. Or, why try to get all particular about it. Why not save time and energy, and just ban “right-wing historical revisionism” and be done with it? I mean, all these different views of history, they just lead people astray … we need to have just one history, by gosh, and Tagos, you’re the man to bring that about … But what makes you say my statements are legal? All of my statements “minimize” the Holocaust. You think they are legal. The law says they are not legal. It quite specifically bans statements that minimize the Holocaust. Yes, it is a mishmash of statements, it was intended to be. I wanted a wide selection of statements for people to choose from, so they could get the sense of how many ways there are to minimize a historical event which don’t lead to Nazis jumping out of the woodwork. I’m not the one who has made the “debate over details” illegal, Tagos. You guys are. I’m not equating denial with details, I don’t have to. The law bans both, I talk about both. Y’all started out by banning denial of the Holocaust. Now, you’re up to banning any attempt to “minimize” the Holocaust … but all of my statements minimize the Holocaust. Some of them say the Holocaust is so trivial it’s not even worth talking about … can’t get much more minimized than that. So what are the laws banning, if not my statements? If my statement, that the Holocaust is blown way out of proportion because millions die in every war, doesn’t “minimize” the Holocaust to the point of calling it just another thing that happens in war … then what does “minimize” the Holocaust mean? Next, you say “the laws have to [be] applied through courts and so moderated by citizen common sense.” Perhaps you might explain how that happens, because there’s no procedure like that in the US. Is there a “citizen’s common sense representative” in your courts to make sure they are “moderated”? Or are you saying that there’s some kind of civilian revue of the court’s sentence, to make sure that the ruling is in line with the “common sense” of the citizens? Or are you just blowing smoke, and there’s no citizen input into the courts but it sounds good for your argument? I’m quite curious about this one, actually. I’ve seen legal systems around the planet, and I haven’t stumbled across one where the judgement of the court is “moderated by citizen common sense”, but it’s a big world, and anything’s possible. Next, somebody from Germany recently said on this thread that Germans have taken complete responsibility for the Holocaust. My experience is that is certainly true for the ones I’ve met, they’ve dealt with it in a way that say the Japanese haven’t come anywhere close to … so could you explain why the Germans NEED to have their collective crimes “stuffed in their face”? German dopers, is that true? Do you really NEED to have the Holocaust “stuffed in your face”? And if not … why are you silent when Tagos makes that claim? On the other hand, if it is true, do you reckon you’ll still NEED to have the Holocaust stuffed in your face in another half century? And while we’re at it, did you nominate Tagos as the person to make the decision about who needs to have their deeds “stuffed in their face”? 'Cause I know I didn’t. I do know that I have deep mistrust for anyone who thinks they are both qualified and anointed by God to make the decision that “that guy needs to have his deeds stuffed in their face” … but hey, I’m just a reformed cowboy, what do I know? I got bad news for you, Europersonages of the “ban free speech 'cause we’re afraid the Nazis might return” faction. You know how an army is always best trained to fight the last war, and poorly trained to fight the next war? You’re so busy curtailing your liberties in order to fight the last war, that you’re losing the next war. That would be the war to keep your hard-won liberties, featuring you guys vs. the Muslims in a no-holds-barred wrestling match, and as near as I can tell, to date … you’re losing. Badly. While you guys are all in a lather fighting the terrible threat of resurgent Nazis, Muslim riots in France are so common that the burning cars hardly raise an eyebrow. City councils in England are banning piggy banks on their workers desks. Radical Islamists planned the World Tower attacks in Germany. The Dutch are pummeling Geert Wilders to prove they are Islamofriendly. Britain is discussing the possibility of having Sharia Law in parallel with English Common Law. Governments are apologizing to the Muslim World over freakin’ cartoons, for goodness sake … and here’s how the Muslims take advantage of your foolishness in restricting free speech. [QUOTE=Some Legal Genius in Islam] Q. The editors of the anti-Islamic images or film claim to be practicing freedom of speech, but they refrain to address the strict censorship laws regarding discussion of the Holocaust. How come there is no freedom when it comes to the Holocaust issue? A. Freedom of speech is always relative and selective, and will always be used in a political way as illustrated by the example of hypocrisy you give in the question. [/QUOTE] Nope. EU freedom of speech in many countries is relative and selective. In the US and UK, it is much more broad. They are using your stupid Denier laws to justify their desire to end free speech entirely and completely … thanks, Eurodudes, for giving them ammunition to claim that freedom of speech is a myth. The part of the world where there actually is freedom of speech really appreciates that nice touch. And meanwhile, you are so busy watching the Nazis in the rear view mirror that you’re not seeing the Mullahs in the headlights … call me crazy, but I don’t think that this will end well. Islam is not just Nazi in style (chopping off hands, stoning people, cutting of a hand and foot on opposite sides of the body, shutting down opposition, savagely punishing any dissent from revealed dogma, spreading its ideology through war, fomenting hatred and massacre of Jews, etc., etc.). It is Nazi in execution as well, striving for world domination just like the Nazis. It’s not accidental that the Nazis and Islamists were sometimes close allies in WWII. A few centuries ago, IIRC, the Muslims took over and ruled much more of the world than the Nazis ever dreamed of … I know which one I’m more concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/74 "2009-03-03T03:08:09Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Thanks for the clarification, you are correct. > > However, I also felt that the Government should have made a strong policy statement on the issue of free speech, and they didn’t. Instead, they reiterated some variety of “let’s be nice, now, don’t offend anyone” … as if the issues were not death threats and riots and killings, as if the big issue was that somebody got offended. Hey, I was offended that Muslims were making and carrying out death threats … but that didn’t count with the US Gov’t, they wanted to protect the oh-so-delicate Muslim sensibilities from any possibility that they might be offended. The US Government made a very strong policy statement on the issue of free speech. You have probably heard it. “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.” It’s not the government’s job to tell papers to publish or not publish cartoons. I don’t remember them doing either. If they did suggest that news outlets not publish the cartoons, I wouldn’t think that was a good thing, but I don’t remember it happening. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/75 "2009-03-03T05:03:26Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The US Government made a very strong policy statement on the issue of free speech. You have probably heard it. “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.” > > It’s not the government’s job to tell papers to publish or not publish cartoons. I don’t remember them doing either. If they did suggest that news outlets not publish the cartoons, I wouldn’t think that was a good thing, but I don’t remember it happening. **villa** , very good, you are quite correct, the US government has made a strong policy statement. I can’t locate the US Govt statements on the cartoon war. Here’s one from an earlier incident, when a woman in Hebron posted a picture of Mohammed as a pig: [QUOTE=Some Wanker in the Clinton Administration] The United States has given great thought to this over the last couple of days, and I mean at the very highest levels of our government. We condemn the outrageous, crude and sick portrayal of the Prophet Mohammed by an Israeli settler the other day. This woman is either sick or she is evil… We are very pleased that she is going to be put on trial by the Israeli Government. She deserves to be put on trial for these outrageous attacks on Islam. We are grateful that President Weizman and Prime Minister Netanyahu have denounced her and her actions and her sick cartoon in very clear terms. [/QUOTE] This sucks bigtime. The US State Department had already tried and convicted the woman … what happened to “innocent until proven guilty?” What happened to free speech? OK, found what I remembered: [QUOTE=Some Wanker in the Bush Administration] “We find them offensive, and we certainly understand why Muslims would find these images offensive,” the Bush administration said of the cartoons. “Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images, as anti-Christian images, or any other religious belief.” [/QUOTE] I find the unintended slip of the tongue hilarious, where "“Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as … any other religious belief.” I can get behind that one … And while it is true that anti-Muslim images may be as offensive to some as anti-Christian images are to others, in the US both are protected speech. Unfortunately, that’s not true in either Luxemburg or Libya, or in either Switzerland or Saudi Arabia … gotta say, you Eurofolk sure choose strange bedfellows … ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/76 "2009-03-03T14:48:06Z")
> [@intention](#): > > I just don’t think it is a good idea to ban discussing any aspect of any of that long history of human lunacy. First because it is ineffective. People still say it and still believe it. Well, we’re not talking about banning discussion of it; what I was postulating is that the punishment for espousing denial (not discussion, but assertion of denial) is because the Germans (in my postulation) know that such denial is inherently dishonest. It’s not actual discussion being banned. It’s more like the laws against Nigerian scammers. No serious scholar actually thinks a Nigerian prince needs to move millions of dollars through the bank account of some grandmother in New Jersey. We KNOW it’s not happening; the law is to protect society from malefactors, not to unjustly prevent Nigerian princes from getting a fair hearing. The deniers are trying to do something to other people, to trick them, or even to obliquely threaten them, for their own benefit and society’s cost. It’s not honest inquiry any more than a three-card-monte dealer ripping off the gullible. The law is (IMHO) a response to the deceit and damage, not an attempt to quell scholarship or investigation. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/77 "2009-03-03T15:04:21Z")
Response to **intention** , post #75 Where is the first quote from - the Hebron pig incident. If it is accurate, I hope the person was fired. But I only found one blog reporting on it. And the quote is bad enough I would expect to find it elsewhere, so if you have any cite to it, I’d be grateful. > **[\[Hebron Pig Poster Incident:\] How Clinton Adheres to the 'Rushdie Rules'](https://www.danielpipes.org/284/hebron-pig-poster-incident-how-clinton-adheres-to)** > >   Tatiana Soskin     The State Department spokesman last Thursday launched into a tirade of a sort that may be unique in the annals of U.S. diplomacy. Asked about a woman, Tatiana Soskin (also spelled Tatyana Suskin), who allegedly put up But when I look up the person’s name, it appears she wasn’t tried for drawing the cartoon, but for trying to post it on an arab storefront. She was arrested it appears for attempted vandalism and attempted incitement to riot. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana\_Soskin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana_Soskin) Now the pros & cons of that case can be argued, but it isn’t necessary a clear cut free speech matter, it involves not only public order but also private property. As for the second quote, from the Bush administration, you seem to have left off McCormack’s qualifier… > [@](#): > > Still, the United States defended the right of the Danish and French newspapers to publish the cartoons. “We vigorously defend the right of individuals to express points of view,” McCormack added. > **[San Diego Union-Tribune](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/)** > > San Diego, California and National News ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/78 "2009-03-03T15:23:11Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, we’re not talking about banning discussion of it; what I was postulating is that the punishment for espousing denial (not discussion, but assertion of denial) is because the Germans (in my postulation) know that such denial is inherently dishonest. It’s not actual discussion being banned. It’s more like the laws against Nigerian scammers. No serious scholar actually thinks a Nigerian prince needs to move millions of dollars through the bank account of some grandmother in New Jersey. We KNOW it’s not happening; the law is to protect society from malefactors, not to unjustly prevent Nigerian princes from getting a fair hearing. > > The deniers are trying to do something to other people, to trick them, or even to obliquely threaten them, for their own benefit and society’s cost. It’s not honest inquiry any more than a three-card-monte dealer ripping off the gullible. The law is (IMHO) a response to the deceit and damage, not an attempt to quell scholarship or investigation. I don’t think that is correct. They are of course sadly deluded, but I think in general holocaust deniers genuinely believe their version of history. Like 9/11 conspiracy nuts, &etc. They are not dishonest. Merely wrong. In any case, Germany has some good historic reasons for their laws, but it is not the state’s responsibility to protect the people from unwholesome ideas and thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/79 "2009-03-03T20:34:37Z")
**villa** , you raise interesting issues as always. > [@villa](#): > > Response to **intention** , post #75 > > Where is the first quote from - the Hebron pig incident. If it is accurate, I hope the person was fired. But I only found one blog reporting on it. And the quote is bad enough I would expect to find it elsewhere, so if you have any cite to it, I’d be grateful. > > [[Hebron Pig Poster Incident:] How Clinton Adheres to the 'Rushdie Rules' :: Daniel Pipes](http://www.danielpipes.org/284/hebron-pig-poster-incident-how-clinton-adheres-to) The quote came from the US State Department [transcript](http://usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/press/state/archive/1997/july/sd10707.htm). > [@villa](#): > > But when I look up the person’s name, it appears she wasn’t tried for drawing the cartoon, but for trying to post it on an arab storefront. She was arrested it appears for attempted vandalism and attempted incitement to riot. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana\_Soskin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana_Soskin) > > Now the pros & cons of that case can be argued, but it isn’t necessary a clear cut free speech matter, it involves not only public order but also private property. My issue was not with whether she was charged with upsetting some precious snowflake’s day by insulting them or whether the actual charge was mopery on the skyways. My point was the craven, insulting, pre-judging nature of the US State Department’s response > [@villa](#): > > As for the second quote, from the Bush administration, you seem to have left off McCormack’s qualifier… > > [The San Diego Union-Tribune: Local News, Sports and Things to Do](http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060204/news_1n4cartoon.html) As I mentioned above, I’m a cartoonist who has drawn cartoons of Muhammed. As such, I was appalled at the US Government response. The whole issue of freedom of speech was dealt with, as you rightly observe, in a “qualifier”. It came only at some point after saying that it was some kind of anti-Islamic thing, and after saying that anti-Islamic things were bad and evil, and anti-Christian and anti-Semitic things were evil … Dudes … it’s a cartoon. Yes, it pokes fun of the Prophet. Yes, it showed him with a bomb in his turban, as a way to indicate that at any moment the Islamic world is ready to explode and bomb things. To prove that this was just an evil, warped, fallacious caricature of the Religion of Peace™, of course, the Islamic world exploded and bombed things … :rolleyes: For me, the proper US response would have been to talk about freedom of speech. Period. It’s not the place of the US government to get into discussing cartoons to parse what is anti-Islamic and what is not. But hey, YMMV … Thanks, **villa.** ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715/80 "2009-03-03T21:17:12Z")
> [@intention](#): > > **villa** , you raise interesting issues as always. > > The quote came from the US State Department [transcript](http://usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/press/state/archive/1997/july/sd10707.htm). That quote is different to the one you posted initially. > [@intention](#): > > My issue was not with whether she was charged with upsetting some precious snowflake’s day by insulting them or whether the actual charge was mopery on the skyways. My point was the craven, insulting, pre-judging nature of the US State Department’s response But the crimes with which she was charged ARE relevant. If she drew a cartoon, and was arrested and imprisoned, people should be in uproar. The fact that she drew a cartoon, and defaced private property with it in an attempt to incite a riot in a volatile situation puts a somewhat different spin on things, don’t you think? We condemn actions all the time without waiting for the trial. Yes it can go to far, and yes restrictions on free speech in the name of public order often go to far. But if a person climbs onto private property to hang a banner across a synagogue entrance saying something as offensive as “Hitler was right” for example, do you think I should wait until after their trial to condemn their actions? > [@intention](#): > > As I mentioned above, I’m a cartoonist who has drawn cartoons of Muhammed. As such, I was appalled at the US Government response. The US government defends your right to draw them. It stops short of either patting you on the head and telling you that you are a good person for drawing them, or in supporting you trespassing and posting them on private property with the intention of formenting a riot. > [@intention](#): > > The whole issue of freedom of speech was dealt with, as you rightly observe, in a “qualifier”. It came only at some point after saying that it was some kind of anti-Islamic thing, and after saying that anti-Islamic things were bad and evil, and anti-Christian and anti-Semitic things were evil … Saying the Bush administration went over the top in defense of religion is hardly earth shattering. And if you are thinking it isn’t an anti-Islamic thing, or that anti-Islamic things aren’t as bad as anti-Christian or anti-Semitic things, well, we will just have to differ. [quote=“intention, post:79, topic:487715”] Dudes … it’s a cartoon. Yes, it pokes fun of the Prophet. Yes, it showed him with a bomb in his turban, as a way to indicate that at any moment the Islamic world is ready to explode and bomb things. To prove that this was just an evil, warped, fallacious caricature of the Religion of Peace™, of course, the Islamic world exploded and bombed things … :rolleyes: [QUOTE] No, the Islamic world didn’t explode or bomb things, any more than the Christian world blows up abortion clinics or government buildings in Oklahoma. Individual Muslims exploded and bombed things. > [@intention](#): > > For me, the proper US response would have been to talk about freedom of speech. Period. It’s not the place of the US government to get into discussing cartoons to parse what is anti-Islamic and what is not. > > But hey, YMMV … > > Thanks, **villa.** If the US is to be involved in the Middle East at all, which it pretty much inextricably seems to be, then these sort of things will happen. I have no problem with the government disapproving of something because it feels it is hate based; I don’t support them banning it, and, oddly enough, the government didn’t ban anything. It seemed to go out of its way to support free expression. Free speech isn’t about freedom from criticism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-in-germany-for-holocaust-denial/487715.md?page=5)