# Prisoners are being sued for the cost of their incarceration **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 1, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112 "2015-12-01T13:52:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/141 "2015-12-02T22:39:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This absolutely wrong. The only difference in wealth that is considered is that the least wealthy are more likely not have the means to pay all they owe and some of their debt must be forgiven. The debt stays the same, the sentence stays the same. The difference is that the wealthy may not have to work to pay their way, the same situation that existed before they were convicted of a crime. This is sheer babble. If some people get some of their debt forgiven and others don’t, or if some people have to work as part of their punishment and others don’t, then the debt and the sentence are **not** “staying the same” for the wealthy and the non-wealthy. Yes, we allow law-abiding wealthy people to get away with not working for a living the way most non-wealthy people have to, because being able to support oneself in our mixed-capitalist society depends on one’s wealth rather than one’s work. But when it comes to _punishment for a crime_, making some criminals work while others _who are guilty of the exact same crime_ don’t have to is completely contrary to the whole notion of equality before the law. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/142 "2015-12-02T22:42:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I do not advocate forced labor. It is paid labor, under the same OSHA regulations that apply elsewhere. It will almost certainly be relegated to growing food and projects not otherwise cost justified. No one is forced to work. If they have the means to pay for their cost of living already they don’t have to do anything. If they friends or family that will pay the bill that’s fine too. If they refuse to work then they go hungry. That’s the way it works outside of prison, except that outside of prison they’ll commit crimes to pay for their food, inside prison they lose that opportunity. It’s still forced labor if they don’t have the right to quit and seek other employment, ask for a raise or organize for collective bargaining, like they would outside. And good luck starving prisoners who refuse to work. Either you apply all the conditions of outside market forces or none. This sounds more and more like a Libertarian fantasy than a serious proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/143 "2015-12-02T23:28:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I do not advocate forced labor. It is paid labor, under the same OSHA regulations that apply elsewhere. It will almost certainly be relegated to growing food and projects not otherwise cost justified. … Hardly. I just looked up what they do in California, besides making license plates. you might be surprised. [http://pia.ca.gov/](http://pia.ca.gov/) Not to mention, many are selected to risk their life fighting wildfires in the state. \*A shocking number of firefighters battling California’s numerous wildfires are actually prisoners sometimes working for less than $2 a day. They’re hoping to earn shorter sentences – and they’re saving taxpayers tens of millions of dollars. \* [https://www.rt.com/usa/312510-california-firefighters-prisoners-low-pay/](https://www.rt.com/usa/312510-california-firefighters-prisoners-low-pay/) Your logic just doesn’t hold water. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/144 "2015-12-03T00:28:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The free market does not like to compete with a captive labor force, whether it is manufacturing, data processing or maintaining state property. Any attempt to significantly monetize prison labor outside of the prison laundry and food service is going to get some push back from private industry. IIRC Congress has banned prisoners from being employed in interstate commerce unless they’re paid the prevailing wage for whatever it is they’re doing. That’s why prisoners make license plates and furniture for government offices rather than stuff to sell in Walmart. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/145 "2015-12-03T04:22:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I did address that. It’s our responsibility to provide work that would cover those costs. A prisoner working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week should be covering his costs. It’s our responsibility to provide that opportunity to work. I agree in principle, but how does that work in reality? Let’s say it costs the state $30k per year to house a prisoner. Many people on the outside do not have the skill set to get a job making that much. Assuming that within the prison system there could be jobs that provided a benefit to the prison system of $30k per year, what do we do with prisoners that no matter how hard they try, only have the ability to bring in $20k per year to the prison system? However, that same person, even if he were not in prison would qualify for various public assistance programs that the state would be required to pay for anyways. The state isn’t facing an increased cost in that situation; its likely a net savings because the prison industry generally provides shitty healthcare (compared to a family doctor and local hospital) and can do it all onsite. We don’t ask welfare beneficiaries to pay back the money if and when they hit the lottery. We don’t add fees for using the public schools, requesting police assistance, playing basketball in a public park, or using the public road. These, like a functioning prison system, are rightfully seen as a basic function of society to be paid for by taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/146 "2015-12-03T04:39:24Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > You are also completely confusing who is getting the “services” of incarcerating criminals. Generally, it is us on the outside who reap the ‘benefits’ of jailing people. That’s why we do it. We are all better off (or so the story goes) when certain people are behind bars. That’s what we pay for. Criminals don’t “get” anything for free. What they do is involuntarily participate in their own segregation from the general public, which is something that society has decided is worth doing. > > If it’s not worth it to us to keep them in jail, then we should by all means come up with an alternate solution. Just don’t forget that the general public are the ones that are getting something for their money in this whole deal, not the criminals. An excellent point. Imprisonment isn’t a service the government is providing to the prisoners; it’s a service the government is providing to the general public outside the prison. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/147 "2015-12-03T09:02:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I thought a premise was “Serve your time, get a fresh start.” But, after serving a long prison term then, in addition to many other difficulties, an ex-con who manages to accumulate several thousand dollars can have that money confiscated? It turns the premise into a lie. The idea is usually stated as “they’ve paid their debt to society” which sounds good, but from a financial perspective isn’t usually the case, and “society” means the court system. The victims are rarely made whole. The concept has been effectively divorced from real restitution to the victims and reduced to fines or court costs, and as some dismissively call it here, “free room and board.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/148 "2015-12-03T10:15:47Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > The concept has been effectively divorced from real restitution to the victims But isn’t that kind of the point? We don’t **want** to send the message that all you need to do to atone for a crime is to reimburse the victims for their financial losses. If that’s the attitude, like I said, we might just as well bring back weregeld and be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/149 "2015-12-03T13:15:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But isn’t that kind of the point? We don’t **want** to send the message that all you need to do to atone for a crime is to reimburse the victims for their financial losses. If that’s the attitude, like I said, we might just as well bring back weregeld and be done with it. It’s not an all or nothing thing. There’s an armed robbery trial at a pharmacy here locally that the judge just declared a mistrial because a spectator told a juror to “you better find my nigga not guilty”. Now the judge was Not Amused, and sent him to jail for 180 days. See where I’m goin’ with that? The whole operation from start to finish is just a net drain on the taxpayer to begin with, from a strictly dollars and sense perspective. I don’t know what trials cost but they are not cheap. His incarceration is not cheap. The “free lance jackass” as the judge described him, DID request a fine in lieu of jail time and denied any involvement, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/150 "2015-12-03T14:18:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Seems petty and counterproductive to me. The idea supposedly is that after prison, the ex-con goes straight and becomes a member of society. Perhaps it’s an open admission that that ain’t gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/151 "2015-12-03T14:27:53Z")
I’ve been thinking about this thread, and it seems that there are two competing schools of thought: 1. The thought that a criminal incurs some kind of debt to society by committing crimes, and discharges that debt through serving their sentence, and (ideally) should be square with everyone after paying that debt. There’s a sort of notion that whatever costs of the criminal justice system are just sort of there, and would be there regardless. 2. The thought that a criminal basically forces the state/society to incarcerate them for its own protection and as a sort of deterrent punishment. The thought goes further in thinking this is basically a resource draw away from other more productive uses that the state could be spending its money on. In that light, charging an ex-convict for their incarceration makes a lot of sense. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/152 "2015-12-03T14:39:52Z")
I think people who find this practice morally reprehensible should ask themselves why they don’t also demand that we stop imposing court costs on defendants who are convicted, too. It’s just another “cost of the criminal justice system.” I also think there are far more egregious things being done to prisoners that affect many more people and really have no discernible benefit to society - like charging them unconscionably high rates for phone calls (though thankfully [the FCC recently barred that practice](http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/23/news/fcc-prison-phone-call-rates/)). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/153 "2015-12-03T14:59:37Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Perhaps it’s an open admission that that ain’t gonna happen. Under our current system, where those who commit crimes are imprisoned in a for-profit system rife with corruption and violence and then have their employment prospects crippled for life…yeah, you’re right. It’s hard as hell to “go straight.” We set people up to fail. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/154 "2015-12-03T15:07:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree in principle, but how does that work in reality? > > Let’s say it costs the state $30k per year to house a prisoner. Many people on the outside do not have the skill set to get a job making that much. Assuming that within the prison system there could be jobs that provided a benefit to the prison system of $30k per year, what do we do with prisoners that no matter how hard they try, only have the ability to bring in $20k per year to the prison system? > > However, that same person, even if he were not in prison would qualify for various public assistance programs that the state would be required to pay for anyways. The state isn’t facing an increased cost in that situation; its likely a net savings because the prison industry generally provides shitty healthcare (compared to a family doctor and local hospital) and can do it all onsite. > > We don’t ask welfare beneficiaries to pay back the money if and when they hit the lottery. We don’t add fees for using the public schools, requesting police assistance, playing basketball in a public park, or using the public road. These, like a functioning prison system, are rightfully seen as a basic function of society to be paid for by taxpayers. I’ll focus the issue to simply the prisoners. They should be charged at a minimal rate for the cost of their, food, clothing, shelter, and medical care. I’ll toss out a hypothetical figure of $50 a day. We can’t take the state’s entire cost of maintaining the penal system and divide it by the number of prisoners because that will be arbitrarily high figure that is unrelated to the actual costs incurred by the prisoner. Prisoners who do not have the means to pay that already should be offered work in prison to cover that bill. A prison job should cover all of it no matter what the job is, and even leave some left over because we want this to be part of a rehabilitation effort as well. If the work done is worth more than the costs they owe they should get paid for it at a fair market rate and keep the balance above their costs. If there is no work available then we have to give them a pass. There would be no point in having them dig holes and fill them in again just to say they are working, it’s our responsibility to make sure the system works, we can’t charge them for their costs and then not provide the opportunity to pay for them. I don’t consider these costs the same as the ordinary costs a society must bear because the criminals have chosen to incur these costs, not the public. It is very easy not to incur the costs of incarceration, just don’t commit crimes. ETA: In lieu of available work I would give some credit to prisoners who participate in training programs that would enable them to earn a living outside of prison. Some portion of their debt would remain to be paid should they become employed and earn enough to use some percentage of those earnings to repay their remaining debt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/155 "2015-12-03T16:21:55Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’ve been thinking about this thread, and it seems that there are two competing schools of thought: > > 1. The thought that a criminal incurs some kind of debt to society by committing crimes, and discharges that debt through serving their sentence, and (ideally) should be square with everyone after paying that debt. There’s a sort of notion that whatever costs of the criminal justice system are just sort of there, and would be there regardless. > > 2. The thought that a criminal basically forces the state/society to incarcerate them for its own protection and as a sort of deterrent punishment. The thought goes further in thinking this is basically a resource draw away from other more productive uses that the state could be spending its money on. In that light, charging an ex-convict for their incarceration makes a lot of sense. > > What do you think? I think there is no reason to think that “serving their sentence” in #1 cannot include working for room and board. But the key is, make it part of the sentence up front-- don’t go _ex post facto_ on their asses! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/156 "2015-12-03T16:35:22Z")
Legally, won’t there be equal protection issues if this becomes a general principle? For the sake of argument, let’s use the thirty thousand dollar a year figure mentioned in an earlier post. Now there are obviously going to be people who don’t have that kind of money. So you’ll have two people who get arrested for the same crime. Both are sentenced to five years in prison. But one of them has a house and a bank account and the other one doesn’t. The first guy effectively gets sentenced to five years imprisonment and a $150,000 fine while the second guy only get five years imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/157 "2015-12-03T19:20:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Not to mention, many are selected to risk their life fighting wildfires in the state. WTF? We’re putting the lives of these poor innocent criminals lives on the line? Fuck that. Better to have the lives of the non-criminals in jeopardy when their houses burn down, I say. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/158 "2015-12-03T19:23:34Z")
The point is not that they should not be fighting fires, but that they should earn at least minimum wage while they do _that_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/159 "2015-12-03T19:35:41Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > WTF? We’re putting the lives of these poor innocent criminals lives on the line? Fuck that. Better to have the lives of the non-criminals in jeopardy when their houses burn down, I say. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The point is not that they should not be fighting fires, but that they should earn at least minimum wage while they do _that_. Let’s keep in mind that none of these prisoners fighting fires is doing so by compulsion. It’s completely voluntary. And they get 2 days off their sentence for every day they work (in CA). ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112/160 "2015-12-03T19:56:25Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > WTF? We’re putting the lives of these poor innocent criminals lives on the line? Fuck that. Better to have the lives of the non-criminals in jeopardy when their houses burn down, I say. I’ll bet the day your house is about 3 in line for the fire to reach it, you’ll welcome these “criminals” with open arms to save it. Then after they do, you can send them a bill for that day’s share of their incarceration costs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-are-being-sued-for-the-cost-of-their-incarceration/739112.md?page=9)