# Prisoners Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2006, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540 "2006-08-06T07:32:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/21 "2006-08-06T12:14:28Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Forthly. There is no proof that neither you nor I can provide that would substantiate your assertion that the treatment I propose would drive a prisoner mad or seek revenge, yours is a hypothetical statement . [/QUOTE] I’ll leave the cites to someone else, wouldn’t know where to look, really. But if you, despite all evidence, seriously believe that hard prisons reduce crime, I don’t see why you can’t accept the far more logical notion that several years dedicated to NOTHING is slightly maddening, but even suppose it’s impossible to prove. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/22 "2006-08-06T12:25:27Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] There is no proof that neither you nor I can provide that would substantiate your assertion that the treatment I propose would drive a prisoner mad or seek revenge, yours is a hypothetical statement . [/QUOTE] Oh really? ‘Scotland has radically reformed the conditions and treatment for remand prisoners. Victorian conditions for remand prisoners were described by the Prisons Inspectorate as “a national disgrace”. It is heartening then to report here on recent changes in those conditions. Remand prisoners in Barlinnie are no longer in overcrowded cells, enduring the demeaning and unhygienic practice of slopping out. This is the final step in a remarkable chain of events which was set in train by Alec Spencer, the Governor of HMP Edinburgh, when in December 1998, he made the bold decision to house remand prisoners in a new state of the art building…’ [http://www.innocentuntilprovenguilty.com/scottishexample.html](http://www.innocentuntilprovenguilty.com/scottishexample.html) Have a read about how inhuman prison conditions (still much less severe than your suggestions) lead to suicides, and how reforms have saved lives. 'As punishment, Collins, pictured, then 26, was transferred to a segregation unit in Perth Prison known as “the dungeon”, a hole in the ground at the bottom of a long, spiral staircase. With no windows, he did not see daylight for more than a year. “They put me in a straitjacket and beat me up twice a day for five days,” he said. "The doctor said if I suffered any more injuries, I would die. I was injected with drugs to keep me docile. “One of the things that sticks in my mind was the cockroaches. Every time they slammed the cell door, the plaster came off the walls and I would wake up to find them crawling all over me.” Collins said the psychological aspect of his punishment was the worst. Losing all sense of time, he had no idea how long he would remain in solitary confinement. Today, he owes his life to a prison officer who displayed a kindness and warmth he had never experienced. “Most of the screws didn’t give a damn, but one of them did care and I came to respect him. You can’t lock people up and treat them like animals. If that’s all you do, when they do get out, they’ll kill again. You’ve got to give them an opportunity to change.” Prison officers began to negotiate with Collins and he was moved to the progressive Barlinnie Special Unit. Now closed, inmates enjoyed privileges and were encouraged to expand their minds with group therapy, reading and painting. Collins, now 54, discovered a talent for sculpture; released in 1993, he is now a writer and sculptor. ’ > **[News | The Scotsman](https://www.scotsman.com/news)** > > Get all of the latest news from The Scotsman. Providing a fresh perspective for online news. Oh look. One of the most dangerous murderers in the country is now leading a productive life. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/23 "2006-08-06T12:44:38Z")
Your statements imply that inmates have it too easy in prison. I voiced my opinion somewhat to the contrary. I do feel like our correctional institutions are not dealing with the potential for rehabilitation as well as it could. Before you blast me for being weak on crime, take notice that I live in TEXAS. I don’t know what you know about my state, but weakness in not part of our character. “Don’t mess with Texas” is our motto. We execute more prisoners than most of the country combined. There are no luxuries in the prisons. When I say it’s hot in prison I don’t bullshit. It was well over a 100 degrees F outside today. There is mo A/C or even fans in prisoners cells or the rest of the unit for that matter. My brother works at a unit. He says it gets over 120F inside the prison. Weak on crime! How about having to serve time in jail for being drunk in a bar? How about a life sentence for DWI? You best rethink this OP. A friend of mine was killed in prison by a rapist. He got arrested for marijuana (a joint) wound up getting a year and was killed a few months later. If you can’t take the heat, huh! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/24 "2006-08-06T13:20:12Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Read again my earlier post. I said SHOULD not will deter. [/QUOTE] I read your posting. Did you? You made a positive statement; that of, “should deter.” You are asserting that your plan has a larger likelihood of working than it does of not working. So, for the THIRD time, I am asking you: what is your evidence? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/25 "2006-08-06T13:20:22Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] **Chowder** Please explain…why was I mentioned in your last post? [/QUOTE] Because I wanted to make it clear that my post was intended to apply to those who commit serious crimes, rape, murder, child abuse etc. and not to those found guilty of minor crimes such as motoring offences. Really it was more than obvious that this was what I referring to and no explanation should have been necessary. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/26 "2006-08-06T13:22:09Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] I read your posting. Did you? You made a positive statement; that of, “should deter.” You are asserting that your plan has a larger likelihood of working than it does of not working. So, for the THIRD time, I am asking you: what is your evidence? [/QUOTE] SHOULD as opposed to would, see it now? it aint hard. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/27 "2006-08-06T13:31:53Z")
First, there are civil rights that apply across the board, to any human being in the jurisdiction of the country, simply because common humanity calls for it. For example, no torture. “Cruel and unusual punishment” is a civil right that obviously applies only to convicted persons. Other rights: “free exercise” of religion (including the right to no religious beliefs) is something a prisoner cannot be deprived of. Freedom of speech, right to appeal, right to challenge conditions of imprisonment… there are a number of issues where specific rights apply to prisoners. As to why: even as punishment, much less correctional/rehab., imprisonment should be finite and (barring life sentences without parole) with the end in mind of restoring a convict to society. DWI, Burglary, Narcotics Dealing – they are crimes which deserve imprisonment. But they are not things which deprive their perpetrators of their basic humanity. There’s a balance that needs to be maintained there. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/28 "2006-08-06T13:37:20Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] SHOULD as opposed to would, see it now? it aint hard. [/QUOTE] So now I have to dig out a dictionary because you are refusing to back up your own words? Oh, well, here goes. All definitions below are taken from dictionary.com. > [@](#): > > _Should_ > Used to express probability or expectation: They should arrive at noon. I notice that I mentioned in my last posting that you have an expectation of your plan working. The use of the expression _should deter_ indicates such an expectation. > [@](#): > > _Would_ > Used to express presumption or expectation: That would be Steve at the door. So, here’s what we have. You used an expression indicating that you not only consider your plan to be workable but that you expect it to have a greater likelihood of working than of not working (Does “should deter” come to mind?) and I have politely asked you thrice what evidence you have for that. Come on, now. It ain’t that hard. Or maybe it is for you. ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/29 "2006-08-06T13:42:11Z")
Come on, chowder, your reasoning for this is weak. Either you explain in more detail how your hard system scares criminals away, or you provide some examples. What you’re arguing is basically that criminals deserve this treatment, you’re merely mentioning that you also think it would be effective. However, most of us seem to disagree that criminals getting what they deserve is an adequate excuse for jail, we also want them to reduce criminality. For us to accept your method, we would need either evidence or arguments for effectivity, “just” punishment is really beside the point. (I hope I’m not misinterpreting anyone here, I trust you will call me on it if I do) ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/30 "2006-08-06T13:43:40Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Der Trihs/Mr 2001/Jimbeam [/quote] I’m not sure why you put my name here, because you didn’t really address my post. I’m eagerly awaiting your response on the issue of religious discrimination: it seems like a (further) violation of human rights to grant visitors to some but not others based on their religious beliefs. Your statement “everyone is entitled to their beliefs” is a non sequitur, because beliefs are something you have in your own head; you don’t need a visitor’s help to believe in something. > [@](#): > > Firstly. the colour a persons skin does not make them a criminal, I never implied that at all. No, but race does have an effect on sentencing. The causes are debatable, but the statistics are there. > [@](#): > > Secondly.Do you have any proof whatsoever that people released from prison are going to be “crazy” as you so delicately phrase it. Also can you be absolutely certain that there would be no outside assistance given…I doubt that very much. > > Thirdly. Do not be so obtuse as to bring in aged and sick relatives into this debate.It is prisoners who have committed serious crimes I’m talking about. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence should be able to see that. One might say the same about being able to see that subjecting people to this kind of treatment would mess them up. > [@](#): > > Fifthly. If you cannot stand the heat stay out of the kitchen, In other words, obey the law of the land and you get all the privilages that would otherwise be denied you. Uh huh. Sounds like an abusive husband telling his wife “If you’d just stop talking back, I wouldn’t have to hit you.” You can’t excuse such horrible treatment just by giving an advance warning. > [@](#): > > Forthly. There is no proof that neither you nor I can provide that would substantiate your assertion that the treatment I propose would drive a prisoner mad or seek revenge, yours is a hypothetical statement . Now you’re repeating yourself, and I should point out that fourth comes before fifth, not after. (Although one wonders whether this entire thread came after a fifth…) > [@Monty](#): > > I notice that I mentioned in my last posting that you have an expectation of your plan working. The use of the expression should deter indicates such an expectation. Maybe he means “should” as in “you should be nicer to your brother” - an expression of desire, rather than likelihood. “It’d be nice if this worked as a deterrent [but it doesn’t].” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/31 "2006-08-06T13:51:34Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] There is no proof that neither you nor I can provide that would substantiate your assertion that the treatment I propose would drive a prisoner mad or seek revenge, yours is a hypothetical statement . [/QUOTE] I trust you’re willing to volunteer to spend six months in a good-sized bathroom to demonstrate how mad you wouldn’t get. ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/32 "2006-08-06T13:59:16Z")
[QUOTE=Mr2001] Maybe he means “should” as in “you should be nicer to your brother” - an expression of desire, rather than likelihood. “It’d be nice if this worked as a deterrent [but it doesn’t].” [/QUOTE] That’s noble of you, but it seems evident he used it as an argument as to why his method works. Using should as an expression of desire, his argument becomes something to the effect of “My method works, because it would be nice if it did” ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/33 "2006-08-06T14:14:06Z")
[QUOTE=yelimS] Using should as an expression of desire, his argument becomes something to the effect of “My method works, because it would be nice if it did” [/QUOTE] Seems like that’s what it boils down to anyway. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/34 "2006-08-06T14:31:54Z")
[QUOTE=Mr2001] Seems like that’s what it boils down to anyway. 😉 [/QUOTE] Well, at least I suppose he’d have Pangloss on his side. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/35 "2006-08-06T14:57:12Z")
It’s not like civilization has had today’s prisons since time immemorial; draconian conditions have been tried before, as **glee** ’s cites in post 22 demonstrate. **chowder** , why do you think prison conditions were changed if those ways worked so well? Why have most societies moved away from those conditions, as opposed to staying with them if they are so effective? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/36 "2006-08-06T15:07:34Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] Before you blast me for being weak on crime, take notice that I live in TEXAS. I don’t know what you know about my state, but weakness in not part of our character. “Don’t mess with Texas” is our motto. [/QUOTE] I know that Texans like to play up the tough reputation, but the actual state motto is “Friendship” (sounds almost wimpy, doesn’t it?) and the “Don’t Mess with Texas” slogan was from an _anti-littering_ campaign. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/37 "2006-08-06T16:35:03Z")
Punishment has historically been shown to have a fairly limited effect, we in the UK had the death penalty for what would be called minor infringements, such as stealing a pie - a 9 year boy was executed for that, transportation for even less serious crimes but such draconian measures did not in themselves reduce crime. Its also a matter of record that UK prison terms have steadily increased over the last 100 years, but no-one would say that we currently live in a golden age of crime free living. Crime does have a very strong correlation with poverty, it goes up when we have a recession, and generally decreases in better times, it afflicts those at the lower end of the income scale, hence the disproportionate number of ethnic minorities in prison. Crime is pretty much a class ridden affair in the UK, especially violent crime. These are mostly associations rather than proof, crime itself can be a cause of poverty for example. For all that, the idea of deterring crime seems to me to work only in a more limited sense, multiple offenders can and do change their offence of choice when the tariff for their usual crime becomes more than they are prepared to accept, so a burglar might change to car theft, but when the tariff for multiple car crimes goes up, they may change to credit card fraud, or if they carry out street robberies and it looks like the next such crime will net them 8 years or so, they will change to something less costly in terms of jail. You’ll note though, that these habitual offenders still keep committing crime, and they also accept that at some point they will also be caught, hence the change of crime of choice to minimise the jail term. The most striking thing about criminals as a whole(which isn’t that good a way to consider them) is that their education levels are appalling, with a typical maths age of around 5 to 7 years old and a reading age of around 9 years old. It means that they are effectively unemployable, but it also means something else, they actually do not have the intellectual power to understand what they lose when they are given a prison term. The vast majority of prisoner I deal with struggle to read the newspapers, and by that I mean the lowest rags published, they fail to understand the concept of media bias, they are unable to generate the cynicism that one get from reading such papers because they simply do not have the critical facilities. Around 70% to 85% return to prison, the figure is higher for younger criminals, those under 21, than for those over 30 which will come as no real surprise. It shows that rehabilitation does less to prevent crime than does jail time, years and age are what have the most effect. I do think that beyond a certain age, repeat offenders are most unlikely to ever make a meaningful contribution to society, by the time a repeat offender is around 26, they will have an offending career stretching back 14 years or more, they are unemployable, and the reality is that they would not be capable of holding down work if it came to them easy. I think there is a case for these repeat offenders being held in prison for extreme terms, without the costly pretence of rehabilitation. You need to realise that in prison, we have drugs counsellors, careers advisors, psychiatrists, psychologists, teachers, trades skills trainers, along with social workers, those delivering the many life skills courses etc etc etc. This does not come cheap, and quite honestly, we could save this money by not pretending we have the answers to criminals, and instead simply hold them in an institution for far less money until they are incapable of causing society harm. I’ll let you do some of the maths here, but, Lets imagine a drug addict with a fairly mild heroin habit, its costing around £200 per week, or around $300. I’ve chosen drugs because that lies at the root of around 66% of UK prisoners, and bear in mind that this relates almost completely to hard drugs and not cannabis or ecstasy. You could make some argument about legalising drugs but that would be a hijack. To obtain that money, our addict has to acquire goods of around 10 times that value, because thats the going rate for stolen stuff, could be mobile phones, GPS units, stolen cars, whatever you want to think of. This addict has to do this 52 weeks a year, whilst committing this crime, our addict also does not work, and in fact draws state benefits, not a huge amount but you the taxpayer are funding it, and remember that someone will have to provide somewhere for our criminal to live, another cost. Add in these costs, and multiply by 10 years or more - quite a sum isn’t it ? It costs around £25k per year to keep our criminal inside a Category C prison per year, but if you took out all pretence at rehabilitation, and just went for containment, this would be significantly less, perhaps one third to one half the cost. There is one further thing, I was just showing you the financial cost to society, but you can’t put a value on the misery these individuals inflict on us, the individuals that make up society, your stolen car is damn inconvenient, but the increased insurance as a result is also a pain, but this is mild compared to the fear of going outdoors that the victim of a violent robbery may undergo. I genuinely think there is room in the prison system for contianment, not just of serious criminals such as murderers, but also for repeat offenders, and forget about rehabilitation, forget about deterrance, just keep them isolated from society with no pretences. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/38 "2006-08-06T17:18:54Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Firstly. the colour a persons skin does not make them a criminal, I never implied that at all. [/quote] A criminal is someone convicted of a crime, and your skin color ( and gender ) affects whether or not and how harshly you are convicted and sentenced. A white woman can do things and get a warning ( or nothing ); a black man can do the same thing and get years in prison. [QUOTE=chowder] Secondly.Do you have any proof whatsoever that people released from prison are going to be “crazy” as you so delicately phrase it. [/quote] Because that _is_ what has happened and does happen when you lock someone in isolation for years. \< Googles \> For example : [Link](http://www.insideprison.com/supermax-prisons-psychological-effects_3.asp) > [@](#): > > In contrast to these aggregate null reports, Rhodes’ (2002) research finds that many prisoners in supermax report feelings of being dead, broken and lifeless, and prone to extreme bouts of uncontrollable rage. As one prisoner in Rhodes’ research reports: > > “it’s gonna make them into something with a lot of violent > potential, a lot of hostility. For months, years on end you’re in this little box. > It comes down to no recognition of your being. Every day becomes extreme. > It’s like a polar environment, and you develop a reactive armor.” > > Similar sentiments were expressed by inmates in Kingston Penitentiary following their notorious rioting of 1971 that left two prisoners dead. The psychiatrist at Kingston Pen at the time, Dr. George Scott, noted that prisoners were suffering from “sheer, unadulterated boredom” in the period leading up to the riot, spending 16 hours of their day in small, bare cells, with little opportunity to access quality rehabilitative programs or to voice complaints. Furthermore, Scott noted that the maximum-security conditioning at Kingston Penitentiary had “solidified” the inmate subculture until a point at which inmates replaced their independence and individuality with cold hostility and cynicism. An inquiry launched shortly after the riot confirmed these speculations. > > A study by Craig Haney (2003), who researched conditions at Pelican Bay’s Security Housing Unit (SHU), evinced that the psychological effects of supermax confinement can induce appetite and sleep disturbances, panic attacks, anxiety, uncontrollable rage, hallucinations, and self-mutilations, some of which occur from the extreme sensory deprivation of such conditions. (It has been speculated that one of the factors behind the Kingston Penitentiary riot in 1971 was that prisoners were restricted from “personalizing” their cell-space, or decorating their living environments, creating an environment akin to sensory deprivation or loss of control.) In addition to Hane’ys medical symptoms there are subtler cognitive, attitudinal, or homeostatic alterations incurred. Below is a comprehensive inventory of the documented effects from psychiatric reports and research into supermax confinement: > > negative attitudes > insomnia > social withdrawal > hypersensitivity > ruminations (compulsive preoccupations, duress, or strain produced by indecision) > paranoia > hallucinations > self-mutilations > hopelessness > a sense of impending doom > suicidal ideation and suicide attempts > aggression. > > The kind of inmates staff may begin to encounter in supermax prisons include those suffering from suicidal behaviour, acute or chronic psychosis, or those externalizing their pent-up aggression by destroying property (such as toilets), and attacking, stabbing, or masturbating on staff. Haney also draws striking parallels between supermax inmates and torture victims, especially those displaying Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and those unfortunate to be subjected to so-called ‘deprivation and constraint’ torture techniques" (132). > > Haney’s research of inmates confined to the SHU at Pelican Bay State Prison in California reveals overwhelmingly high prevalence rates of convicts experiencing both short-term-acute and long-term-chronic psychologically-damaging effects. > > Acute > > 91% of inmates suffered anxiety and nervousness, 84% suffered lethargy, 84% had trouble sleeping, 70% were approaching a nervous breakdown, over 60% had chronically sweaty palms, heart palpitations, and loss of appetite, and over 50% had trembling hands, dizziness, and nightmares. > > Chronic > > The similarities between both the positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia and the effects of supermax confinement are undeniable. Over 80% of inmates experienced ruminations and intrusive thoughts, irrational bouts of anger, oversensitivity to stimuli in their environment, confused thoughts, and social withdrawal. Over 70% experienced emotional flatness and “losing the ability to feel.” Over 60% talked to themselves and fantasized about violence, while just under 50% suffered from perception disorders, hallucinations, or suicidal thoughts. According to Haney, prevalence rates for these kinds of psychiatric symptoms were “extremely high” when compared not only the general population, but to other protective custody unit prisoners, as well (135). > > Haney likens his findings to those of Kingston Penitentiary psychiatric Dr. George D. Scott, who described his observations of incarceration as “isolation sickness,” more recently called “RES” (Reduced Environmental Stimulation), a disorder that includes memory problems, free-floating anxiety, derealization, aggressive fantasies, paranoia, and motor excitement or self-destructive outbursts. > > It is thus both surprising and painful to discover that prisoners in Haney’s study actually adapt and “get used to it” (138). Particularly disturbing is his finding that inmate may have “accommodated so profoundly to the supermax environment that they may be unable to live anywhere else,” and have turned their torturous conditions into “functional” conditions (138). It seems that supermax prisons, in their intention to manipulate and control behaviour, have achieved not only the control of behaviour, but the elimination of it altogether. As he notes, “in extreme cases, prisoners may literally stop behaving” (138). [QUOTE=chowder] Also can you be absolutely certain that there would be no outside assistance given…I doubt that very much. [/quote] Of course; since when have we ever cared about the welfare of ex-convicts ? We’ve never tried to help the ones who were released after being proven innocent ( or even apologized to them ), much less the ones who are guilty. We dumped the mentally ill on the streets under the same theory, that help would just materialize; it didn’t. [QUOTE=chowder] Thirdly. Do not be so obtuse as to bring in aged and sick relatives into this debate.It is prisoners who have committed serious crimes I’m talking about. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence should be able to see that. [/quote] You didn’t say anything of the sort; you said _prisoners_ with no qualifications. [QUOTE=chowder] Fifthly. If you cannot stand the heat stay out of the kitchen, In other words, obey the law of the land and you get all the privilages that would otherwise be denied you. [/quote] And of course all laws are fair and no innocent person has ever been convicted of anything. [QUOTE=chowder] Forthly. There is no proof that neither you nor I can provide that would substantiate your assertion that the treatment I propose would drive a prisoner mad or seek revenge, yours is a hypothetical statement . [/QUOTE] See my cite above, or just read a little about the subject. Bad treatment produces bad behavior; that’s human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/39 "2006-08-06T17:22:30Z")
[QUOTE=yelimS] I completely agree on all counts except this one. Increasing jail standards with these people in mind is partly accepting their imprisonment. Everything should be done to keep these people out of jail, and a mentality that even comes close to “if we fail, it’s not _that_ bad for them” is dangerous. [/QUOTE] While I agree with you _in theory_, the problem is innocent/undeserving people _will_ be sent to prison. It’s the nature of an imperfect system run by imperfect humans. You should always design a system on the assumption that failure will occur. You can try to make it less common, but you can’t eliminate it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540/40 "2006-08-06T17:24:03Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Apart from the basics such as food/drink.toilet/washing facilities/medical care, what, if any, rights are prisoners entitled to? IMHO…none! When a person breaks the law and is sent to prison for his/her crime then I feel that they immediately forfeit the creature comforts which they enjoyed on the outside as free persons. I do not advocate that they should be locked up 24 hours each and every day, 1 hour exercise every 48 hours should be allowed. Today prisoners are afforded all manner of comforts to make their stay in jail more easily handled. They have access to Computers, TV, Radio, Cinema etc. etc…the list is practically endless. If would be transgressors knew that their crime would result in endless hours of mind numbing boredom then surely they would think twice before committing any offence against the law. No visitors at all during the period of confinement other than members of the clergy whatever their religion happens to be. Draconian? maybe…effective? I think so. [/QUOTE] Do you know what the endless boredom you describe usually leads to? Riots. Violent felons with far too much time on their hands, going insane with boredom. Think about it. They’ll end up worse than when they came in. A lot of kids end up in trouble because they were BORED and didn’t have anything else to do. Any parent or teacher can tell you that! Would you REALLY subject the prison employees to have to deal with that? Plus, for family visits-do you think it’s fair to that person’s family and friends to not see their loved ones? Why do you want to punish them too? _They_ didn’t commit any crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prisoners-rights/367540.md?page=3)