# Private firearms as bulwark against despotism in history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2008, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950 "2008-09-24T06:04:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/41 "2008-09-27T00:16:50Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > What does what I said in another thread about the TSA have to do with what I said in this one regarding firearms? This is just stupid. Are you trying to hijack the thread or what? Do you even read your own posts? In two separate threads you delivered essentially the same rant about the US being a police state and gun owners supporting police states. You wrote it, you own it, quit playing at not understanding my point. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/42 "2008-09-27T00:20:31Z")
Here’s something I’d like to share for every left-winger who thinks that guns are solely the domain of right-wing fascists: > [@](#): > > Revolvers come in all sizes and makes, as do automatics. The most highly recommended are the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum. Almost all police forces use the .38 Special. They are light, accurate and the small-frame models are easy to conceal. If you get one, use high velocity hollow pointed bullets, such as the Speer DWM (146 grain h.p.) or the Super Vel (110 grain h.p.). The hollow point shatters on contact, insuring a kill to the not-so-straight shooters. Smith and Wesson makes the most popular .38 Special. The Charter Arms is a favorite model. The .357 Magnum is an extremely powerful handgun. You can shoot right through the wall of a thick door with one at a distance of 20 yards. It has its own ammo, but can also use the bullets designed for the .38. Both guns are about the same in price, running from $75-$100 new. An automatic generally runs about $25 higher. > > There are two commonly available types of rifles; the bolt action and the semi-automatic. War surplus bolt action rifles are cheap and usually pretty accurate, but have a slower rate of fire than a semi-automatic. A semi-automatic is preferable in nearly all cases. The M-1 carbine is probably the best semi-automatic for the money (about $80). It’s light, short, easy to handle and has only the drawback of a cartridge that’s a little underpowered. Among bolt actions, the Springfield, Mauser, Royal Enfield, Russian 7.62, and the Lee Harvey Oswald Special, the Mannlicher-Carcano, are all good buys for the money (about $20). > > One of the best semi-automatics is the AR-18, which is the civilian version of the military M-16. In general, this is a fantastic gun with a high rate of fire, minimal recoil, high accuracy, light weight, and easy maintenance. If kept clean, it will rarely jam, and the bullet has astounding stopping power. It sells for around $225. > > Owning a gun ain’t shit unless you know how to use it. They make a hell of a racket when fired so you just can’t work out in your den or cellar except with a BB gun, which is good in between real practice sessions. Find a buddy who served in the military or is into hunting or target-shooting and ask him to teach you the fundamentals of gun handling and safety. If you’re over 18, you can practice on one of your local firing ranges. Look them up in the Yellow Pages, call and see if they offer instructions. They are usually pretty cheap to use. In an hour, you can learn the basics you need to know about guns and the rest is mostly practice, practice, just like in the westerns. Contact the National Rifle Association, Washington D.C. and ask for information on forming a gun club. If you can, you are entitled to great discounts, have no trouble using ranges and get excellent info on all matters relating to weapons. Want to know who wrote that? Abbie Hoffman, in _Steal This Book._ He sounds like a downright fascist right-wing lunatic, I tell you. Life is just full of surprises. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/43 "2008-09-27T00:43:28Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I thought that although the Germans promised much, they mostly failed to deliver. Am I mistaken? Casement was captured, and didn’t even get that many arms. A significant shipment of German arms was brought in on the Asgard in July, 1914 but thereafter few if any German arms were acquired IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/44 "2008-09-27T01:30:04Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It’s that you’ve made an extremely similar rant in the Pit thread about TSA. Some of your ranting points are, to all practical purposes, identical. I repeat, TSA being rude to you validates none of what you’ve said in either thread about the US being a police state or the calumny you’ve heaped on gun owners. That the TSA were rude to me was a minor issue in another thread and irrelevant in this one so I fail to see why you insist in this. Maybe you are bitter because, residing outside the USA I have the option of staying away from the TSA which Americans do not. It is a fact though that the rights of Americans are being trampled by this Administration and I do not see any of those gun owners objecting or fighting for them. In fact, if the government would ask for their help in rounding up “anti-american liberal traitors” I am sure many would be more than willing to denounce and round up their neighbors. So I find the notion that a citizenry armed with handguns is going to save anyone’s liberties. More likely the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/45 "2008-09-27T14:53:58Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > That the TSA were rude to me was a minor issue in another thread and irrelevant in this one so I fail to see why you insist in this. Maybe you are bitter because, residing outside the USA I have the option of staying away from the TSA which Americans do not. > > It is a fact though that the rights of Americans are being trampled by this Administration and I do not see any of those gun owners objecting or fighting for them. In fact, if the government would ask for their help in rounding up “anti-american liberal traitors” I am sure many would be more than willing to denounce and round up their neighbors. > > So I find the notion that a citizenry armed with handguns is going to save anyone’s liberties. More likely the opposite. There’s the third time with the same rant. Sorry TSA mussed your undies and hurt your feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/46 "2008-09-27T15:11:34Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Henry Morgan was able to use the militia effectively at Cowpens. . . Just to nitpick…Daniel Morgan. Henry Morgan commanded a MASH unit in Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/47 "2008-09-27T16:30:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just to nitpick…Daniel Morgan. Henry Morgan commanded a MASH unit in Korea. Thought that was Henry Blake? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/48 "2008-09-27T16:33:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just to nitpick…Daniel Morgan. Henry Morgan commanded a MASH unit in Korea. To nitpick your nitpick: Harry Morgan was the name of the actor who commanded the 4077th on TV. Henry Morgan is most famously the guy who sacked Puerto Bello and Panama. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/49 "2008-09-27T16:42:24Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Look at it from the other point of view as well. Keeping weapons out of the hands of the citizenry helps the despotic government immensely. Take 1939 Germany for example. When they started kicking down doors, how much different would it have been if the inhabitants of the house had been armed? Probably not in the slightest. Most Germans didn’t have their doors kicked down. Those that did were not victims of a sudden decision to kick doors down; their civil rights were taken away a bit at a time, largely with the support of the majority. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/50 "2008-09-27T19:19:53Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Look at it from the other point of view as well. Keeping weapons out of the hands of the citizenry helps the despotic government immensely. Take 1939 Germany for example. When they started kicking down doors, how much different would it have been if the inhabitants of the house had been armed? Oh that again. Are you also going to mention the Urban Legend that Hitler’s first act was to forbid private citizens to own weapons? If you read up a bit on the history of the 3rd Reich, Hitler came to power legally, and then passed two laws shortly after another: the [enabling law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933) and the [Reichstags fire law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree). Together, both suspended basic civil rights and forbade other opposition parties. The reason given was the dire state of the nation (with open fighting between Hitlers brown shirts and the red shirt communists in the street, plus the economic crisis and the blame on the inability of the established democratic instituions to solve this - a strong man was needed). I leave it to you to compare how many civil rights were suspended by the patriot act with similar reasoning of defending against some enemy. The rights of Jews were taken away gradually, and everybody got used to the restrictions. By the time of the Reichskristallnacht in 1939, when both offical SS and SA and heated citizens (manipulated by the agitators from the party) started the looting and destruction, even if the Jews had still owned guns, that wouldn’t have stopped a wild mob with official backing. A crowd of 50 or 100 people, drunk on emotion, being stopped by a guy with pistol of 6 shots? They would’ve stormed him and ripped him apart alive. Or called for help from the army with a machine gun. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/51 "2008-09-27T19:32:17Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > … But I do agree that the idea that citizen militias can effectively defend against a unified government determined to crush them is silly. This doesn’t invalidate the argument that having an armed populace is a check against governmental abuse. To be an effective check doesn’t require that the militia can achieve a military victory - simply having the potential to make that victory too costly politically is all that is necessary for the check to be real and effective. Of course, the problem with that in regard to the OP is that is close to proving a negative: how do you find examples of a government that didn’t go despotical because they considered the cost of armed resistance by the population too high? And how many of these potential-despotic government simply took the sly route by suspending civil liberties one by one, inventing a terrible enemy against which the population has to unite in the interest of saving the nation, having opposition disappear and be called unpatriotic, … There seems to be the notion that one day the government will wake up and declare “Today we will abolish democracy and erect a dictatorship” and the citizens will wave their guns and say “not with us buster, over our dead bodys!” and instead of saying “Happy to oblige, we’ll send some tanks” the govt. will back down and say “Uh sorry, nevermind, we reconsidered.” That the subtle approach and the division of the population into good and bad groups, all busy watching each other instead of the govt., or that emergency measure power grabs (like the Patriot Act or the AUMF) pass unnoticed and with little resistance, all work to erode democracy silently, seems to go beyond the knowledge of the pro-gun advocates. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/52 "2008-09-27T19:47:48Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Tell that to the various resistance movements who tied up significant forces. Just having to deploy forces is a significant drain. More recently, look at the IRA. The IRA wasn’t fighting against the 3rd Reich, though. Although the British could be considered an occuping force in North Ireland, and although they got harsher and suspended laws and rights they shouldn’t have, they never reached the level or attitude of the Nazis. If the resistance is hiding in a city, and the despotic government wants to wipe out the resistance, it can bomb the city and destroy it., or lay siege and starve it.(Optionally they can evacuate the loyal citizens, if they can be easily told apart). Are the citizens with guns just a small rebel group, or do they have the support of the population as a whole because everybody is against the govt.? Many of the sucessful rebel groups and guerillas in hisotry were against armed intruders - of course most of the population wants to get rid of them. But if most of the population is in favour of the measures the own govt. takes, the rebels may be seen as unpatriotic or lunatics (as the people living in the forests preparing for survival are viewed today). They may be blamed for the bad circumstances because of their rebel activities. If everybody knows that for each dead soldier, 100 people of the next village will be shot, for each act of sabotage a whole town will be razed (and if you know that the soldiers will comply with the order), then the rebels won’t have much of a support. If you can live a comfortable live as long as you keep your head down and don’t talk about certain things, most people will prefer that to opposition. Even Gandhi knew and said that his non-violent opposition worked against the British Empire because of a free press, a democratic system and a part of the English population who was sympathetic to his non-violent crusade, but that it would never have worked against the Nazis. (He also suspended his campaign during WWII, because he didn’t want ot use the weakness as the British were fighting other problems). (The fact that the Empire was costing money to secure and getting less in return also helped his cause). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/53 "2008-09-27T20:25:48Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Tell that to the various resistance movements who tied up significant forces. Just having to deploy forces is a significant drain. More recently, look at the IRA. As to this, the effectiveness of resistance movements against the Third Reich has been extremely overstated at times. Most occupied countries had no militarily effective resistance at all, and few troops were tied down as a result of resistance movements. Where resistance fighters did take action in numbers they were usually massacred by professional troops. Resistance movements that had an effect were generally those supported by the Allied powers and in many cases were actually organized and led by Allied advisors. ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/54 "2008-09-27T21:44:42Z")
Clearly, an armed and resistant populace can be an enabler for a more powerful resistance after foreign powers become interested in seeing the downfall of the despot. But that’s not the only way to do it, either. Gandhi, after all, also quite dramatically achieved the goals of his resistance. Without that foreign aid, though, I would suspect that Gandhi’s resistance would prove the more effective at displacing a despotic government. A local, armed populace doesn’t seem like it would be ultimately effective if in isolation. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/55 "2008-09-27T22:47:01Z")
Gandhi’s form of resistance only works against an oppressor that has some sort of conscience or cares about world opinion. Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, or Hitler would have liquidated Gandhi and his followers and giggled happily at how their lack of resistance made things that much easier. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/56 "2008-09-29T09:12:27Z")
I don’t know how relevant discussion of the Nazi regime is, and whether Germans could have resisted the Nazis. Having guns isn’t enough; you have to have a populace that wants to resist the government. Did the Germans want to resist the Nazis? Not wanting to get into a \*Hitler’s Willing Executioners \*debate (and I haven’t read the book anyhow), but I strongly suspect that even if every German had owned a gun in 1939 they wouldn’t have risen up against the Nazis. [Contrast the Danes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews), who strictly through non-cooperation thwarted the Nazis’ Jewish policy in Denmark. Apparently only around 100 Danish Jews perished in the Holocaust, the lowest rate of any occupied European nation. I guess my point is an unarmed but non-cooperative populace is better than an armed populace which is sympathetic with the aims of the government. Ergo, speculation about what the Germans might have done with a large stock of private arms is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/57 "2008-09-29T09:14:58Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Even Gandhi knew and said that his non-violent opposition worked against the British Empire because of a free press, a democratic system and a part of the English population who was sympathetic to his non-violent crusade, but that it would never have worked against the Nazis. I don’t know that he thought this. Gandhi (in)famously wrote that the Jews should practice non-violent resistance against the Nazis, eliciting the famous open letter from Martin Buber criticizing Gandhi’s point of view. But this was pre-1939; I don’t know what Gandhi’s views during the war were. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/58 "2008-09-29T12:20:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Gandhi’s form of resistance only works against an oppressor that has some sort of conscience or cares about world opinion. Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, or Hitler would have liquidated Gandhi and his followers and giggled happily at how their lack of resistance made things that much easier. Liquidate? We’re talking about Hitler and Stalin, not Blowfeld. In any event, I wonder how easy it would be to liquidate six million people who decided to show up and hold a sit-in in Pariser Platz is in front of the Brandenburg Gate? I think it’s a uniquely American viewpoint that guns by themselves win or lose battles or preserve or destroy freedom. I would submit that the accountants and file clerks of Hitler’s and Stalin’s regimes were far more dangerous than any jackbooted stormtrooper. A government, despotic or not, can only run if people choose to be a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/59 "2008-09-29T13:49:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Liquidate? We’re talking about Hitler and Stalin, not Blowfeld. > > In any event, I wonder how easy it would be to liquidate six million people who decided to show up and hold a sit-in in Pariser Platz is in front of the Brandenburg Gate? > > I think it’s a uniquely American viewpoint that guns by themselves win or lose battles or preserve or destroy freedom. I would submit that the accountants and file clerks of Hitler’s and Stalin’s regimes were far more dangerous than any jackbooted stormtrooper. A government, despotic or not, can only run if people choose to be a part of it. As Mao pointed out, “all power springs from the end of a gun.” Your file clerks are harmless unless there are men with guns who carry out their directives. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950/60 "2008-09-29T14:11:12Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > What are you talking about? Everything a plagiarist says is questionable. Everything. As a result, there is nothing credible to begin with, so how do you start to discredit it? > > Some of your stuff is off the wall. This might be the first time I’ve ever seen a discredited plagiarist cited as an authority in any respect. [Read the article.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arming_America) Bellesisle was never accused of plaigiarism. The controversy around his book is of a different nature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-firearms-as-bulwark-against-despotism-in-history/464950.md?page=4)