# Private helicopter pilot not allowed to fly rescues in Helene disaster zone **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 3, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419 "2024-10-03T19:36:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/21 "2024-10-05T11:02:09Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > FEMA should probably do a better job engaging with private flights into the area. Yeah, the airspace needs to be managed, but private efforts have a significant role to play and there needs to be a clearer means for them to help. Private efforts are almost always the first aid to arrive. It is disorganized and motley but it penetrates quicker, farther and more completely than any government agency. There are people bringing food and water and medical supplies to places cut off from motorized vehicles _ **by mule train** _. And thousands of private boats, small orvs, and really anything anyone can grab. I’m aware of the enormous private forces marshalled to provide safe stabling, hay, and water to livestock because I’m on those discussion boards. Tractor trailor loads of hay are leaving New England every day, and I’m sure other places. The same is true of dogs and cats. This is something FEMA has nothing to do with. I know that private aviation is in a different category, but this guy is part of a massive private effort that is not tracked nor regulated by any government body, nor could it be. I know that the same thing happened with Katrina, and for many people it was the only help they ever got. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/22 "2024-10-05T18:12:54Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I know that private aviation is in a different category, but this guy is part of a massive private effort that is not tracked nor regulated by any government body, nor could it be. The government bodies might not be able to do these things themselves, but they absolutely can track and regulate them in order to make them much more effective. Or, at least, they can until some hotshot decides to ignore the regulations so they can’t track him. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/23 "2024-10-05T18:28:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The government bodies might not be able to do these things themselves, but they absolutely can track and regulate them in order to make them much more effective. Can they though? Think about the guys with the mule trains, packed with food, water, first aid, ice. Who exactly are they going to contact before they leave? What would happen if they told FEMA, or the US army, or whoever is out there right now? My guess is they would not get anything but flak for what they’re doing. Plus, this is Appalachia. They have about three hundred years practice in ignoring and being ignored by the government. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/24 "2024-10-05T18:43:23Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Who exactly are they going to contact before they leave? What would happen if they told FEMA, or the US army, or whoever is out there right now? They’d tell FEMA, or the Army (more likely National Guard), or whoever is out there, and what would happen is that FEMA would make note of that, and tally it up, and mark the area where they’re going as having received those supplies, so that when the next mule train comes up, they won’t waste supplies by taking them somewhere that’s already well-supplied and will instead take them to some other destination that needs them more. Or maybe they’ll say “We heard that there’s someone there in desperate need of insulin; can you add this three-ounce packet to your cargo?”. Or they’ll say that the mule route is right below a dam that’s about to overflow, and if you go that way you’ll be trapped at best and also need rescue, and the railroad that goes the long way around is the only safe way to that area right now. It’s not hard. All it takes is one bean-counter with a spreadsheet on a tablet. Or a clipboard and some papers, if you can’t even manage a tablet. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/25 "2024-10-05T18:46:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Or, at least, they can until some hotshot decides to ignore the regulations so they can’t track him. And then when that hotshot screws up, he becomes another person they have to rescue. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/26 "2024-10-05T18:57:43Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > This is something FEMA has nothing to do with. The issue is that FEMA, in conjunction with the FAA, set up a TFR (temporary flight restriction) which controls what the private pilots are able to do. Pretty much my definition, they’re more restricted than they were before FEMA was there. Most airspace is Class E, which under typical conditions you don’t need clearance to enter, but with the TFR you do. To an extent, this is understandable. FEMA has their own flights which need to be conducted safely. And the circumstances of a disaster tend to attract some degree of hotshot types, even if most private responders are being responsible. In any case, there’s a lot more traffic than there was before. But there’s also the problem that FEMA with all their power and resources tends to bowl into an area without necessarily understanding the circumstances on the ground or what effect their policies will have on the ongoing efforts. So things like the TFR can be more aggressive than needed. And there’s also the effect that the people in charge are isolated from the people doing the work, and information doesn’t always filter up properly. Here, Pete Buttigieg initially claimed that no one shut down the airspace and no aid flights were being blocked. But later he effectively acknowledged that there were problems to be addressed, and it seems pretty clear that people were being shut out of legitimate deliveries. I don’t have all the details but it looks like the TFR covered more area than was really warranted, and that they reduced this. Or maybe relaxed some of the other restrictions. FEMA can offer things like a hotline you can call to schedule a flight. It probably already has one. But it also has to actually be responsive and not deny permission for dubious reasons. It’s difficult enough as it is without adding a ton of admin overhead. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/27 "2024-10-05T19:19:19Z")
Commonsense things like what you describe are not “hard”, but they also do not resemble most people’s experience with FEMA. Which tends to be top-down, overly controlling, and remarkably poor at listening to people who don’t have official titles. I’ve lived through a couple of major disasters, and my own experience is that FEMA arrives only after the roads have been cleared and people’s homes have already been dug out, by neighbors with shovels. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/28 "2024-10-05T20:32:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > We’re only hearing one side of this story, and I’m guessing the version we’re getting is leaving some facts out and heavily slanted towards one party. > **[Surge in Helene relief efforts led to about 30 mid-air close calls over North...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/helene-relief-efforts-about-30-mid-air-close-calls-over-north-carolina-single-day/)** > > The close calls resulted from a spike in aircraft that included planes, helicopters and drones arriving in western North Carolina in the wake of Hurricane Helene. _There were approximately 30 mid-air close calls over North Carolina on Saturday, Sept. 28, as relief efforts ramped up in response to [Hurricane Helene](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hurricane-helene-satellite-images-north-carolina/), a federal official briefed on the matter confirmed to CBS News Friday._ _The close calls resulted from a spike in aircraft that included planes, helicopters and drones arriving in western North Carolina in the wake of Hurricane Helene. The federal official said the close calls did not involve commercial airline traffic._ _The Federal Aviation Administration and the North Carolina Department of Transportation, say air traffic over Western North Carolina has increased by 300% [due to relief efforts](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hurricane-helene-survivors-north-carolina-rescue/) since the storm cleared._ _Becca Gallas, director of the North Carolina Department of Transportation Division of Aviation, told CBS News by phone Friday that there has been a steep increase in government, search and rescue flights, as well as National Guard flights._ _“When the images of the impact of Helene started to show up on TV screens, there was an outpouring of support and love from communities and people were trying to help get supplies on the ground very quickly, but there were safety issues with the air operations,” Gallas said._ This is why you dont fly without permission. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Very few private individuals own helicopters. It wouldn’t be hard to register the people willing to help with Emergency Management. He was registered for one area, then he started to fly outside that area without permission. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Can they though? Think about the guys with the mule trains, packed with food, water, first aid, ice. Mule trains very rarely have mid air collisions causing dozen of extra fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/29 "2024-10-05T20:38:17Z")
Mule trains may not; mule _planes_, on the other hand . . . ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/30 "2024-10-06T13:45:56Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > FEMA arrives only after the roads have been cleared and people’s homes have already been dug out True, though they will be the first to reiterate every time they can that they are _not_ a first-response entity. To a degree they suffer from the federal politicians either puffing it up as “here we come to save the day” or deriding it as useless because it doesn’t, but meanwhile neither reorienting its legal mandate nor providing the resources for what they seem to want it to do. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/31 "2024-10-06T14:30:43Z")
So who is the first-response entity? The local fire and police? State agencies? ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/32 "2024-10-06T14:59:44Z")
That will vary by locale but usually the FD is in charge. [ICS]([Incident Command System - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_Command_System#:~:text=The%20Incident%20Command%20System%20(ICS,multiple%20agencies%20can%20be%20effective.)) Even if the National Guard is called in, they report up thru their chain & then their commander reports to the fire chief ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/33 "2024-10-06T17:25:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Mule trains very rarely have mid air collisions causing dozen of extra fatalities. Maybe not, but it’s a great image. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/34 "2024-10-06T17:32:12Z")
Maybe if they could get a mule with a red nose _a la_ Rudolph they’ve have more success with “see and avoid” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/35 "2024-10-06T17:52:21Z")
OK, maybe it’s not FEMA doing the initial coordination, but the local fire department instead. But the point is, you still need someone coordinating, and anyone who bucks the coordination is part of the problem, not part of the solution. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/36 "2024-10-06T17:55:15Z")
Although the fire department in, say, Mayberry, is only familiar with the situation there. They may have no idea if there are needs in, say, Mount Pilot. So someone or some organization needs to coordinate things across the area. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/37 "2024-10-06T18:35:34Z")
Yeah, the borderline between fiction and reality is getting increasingly difficult to navigate. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/38 "2024-10-06T18:36:59Z")
Every state has a state-level emergency management agency. Who differ widely in capability and quality. And who coordinate with their county-level emergency management functions which also differ widely in competence, capability, and funding. As always, urban areas can afford to be well-provisioned, and rural areas … can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/39 "2024-10-06T18:37:53Z")
Though Googling, there is an emergency management department in North Carolina state government, so they may be the ones to coordinate statewide. Or this might be done by the county governments. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419/40 "2024-10-06T18:51:09Z")
I was referring to the fact that Mount Pilot is a real place, Mayberry isn’t. Though Mount Airy is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/private-helicopter-pilot-not-allowed-to-fly-rescues-in-helene-disaster-zone/1008419.md?page=3)