# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/261 "2010-09-10T19:39:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So one of the senior partners in my section sent around an email today reminding everyone of the firm’s goal of having every lawyer work 20 pro bono hours each year. Apparently our section wasn’t doing so hot compared to the rest of the firm. > > I thought about responding to everyone in our section with simply a picture of the most beautiful and intelligent two-year-old in the world, but of course the proverbial second thought came right after that one and I didn’t do it. > > Also, of course the email mentioned our “ethical obligation” to do pro bono work, which just chaps my hide. > > I’m tired right now and can’t do this pitting full justice at this point, so I’ll just go ahead and get this out there as a placeholder to be fully filled in later. So, I’m pitting people at my firm that try to goad others into doing pro bono work, and the entire idea that because I am a lawyer I have an “ethical obligation” to work for free (hint: I don’t). Just tell your bosses you can do pro bono because it’s against your religion. You wouldn’t be lying. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/262 "2010-09-10T19:46:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Wow, Mr. Excellent, you’ve taken a bold stand and founf an innovative solution to something you perceive as a problem–just throw more public money at it! It’s advanced thinking like that that will have lots of democratic congressdouches in the unemployment line come November. > > Also, I take it you’ve conceded our debate and now acknowledge that I never promised to do pro bono work when I was sworn in. Heh - I rather guessed you wouldn’t like my proposal. Fair enough, then - what’s yours? And, no, I don’t concede that you didn’t promise to _try_ to do pro bono work as your time and resources permitted - but the difficulty is that you appear to only believe that your oath obliges you to follow those professional rules backed by the threat of punishment (that is, the ones you’d follow out of self-interest, without any oath at all.) My position is that if something is in the rules of professional conduct in our jurisdiction, we’ve sworn to do it - but if you believe the only “real” rules are the ones that can get you in trouble, I’m at a loss as to how to convince you otherwise. Which is why I’d left our discussion aside - I don’t know how to argue with a grown man who essentially insists that “If I can’t get in trouble for it, it’s not unethical.” I can only repeat that, in our society, there are many examples of ethical obligations - towards friends, family, co-workers, and so on - that are not backed by the threat of punishment, but are nonetheless taken seriously by most civilized persons. But I’ll thank you not to take my reluctance to continue a fruitless discussion as a concession of your position’s rightness. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/263 "2010-09-10T19:48:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > > Are you … are you _serious_? Retaliate? Good grief, man, what in the world do you think a typical pro bono client _is_? Sure, I could maybe see a client asking if you’d be willing to do some work outside the scope of your project - but that’s easily dealt with. And as for the fear that a client would pose a danger to your family - that’s absurd. > > Laugh it up, but – no lie – I was once the victim of an attempted mugging by one of my clients. That sucks, and I’m truly sorry for it, **Bricker**. But I assume you’d agree that such things are quite rare? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/264 "2010-09-10T20:11:56Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Still… if he doesn’t want to do so, I can’t see why he should be forced to. But a compromise might be achieved by ongoing and clear honest communication with his ‘loser’ clients: if he _does_ perform the pro bono work, but does so half-heartedly and resentfully, and explains to them constantly that he is only doing this for them under the duress of state & corporate blackmail and that he thinks they are responsible for their own troubles and should have the decency to afford his regular fees, everybody wins. This is a whoosh, right? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/265 "2010-09-10T20:14:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Claverhouse](#): > > > > Still… if he doesn’t want to do so, I can’t see why he should be forced to. But a compromise might be achieved by ongoing and clear honest communication with his ‘loser’ clients: if he _does_ perform the pro bono work, but does so half-heartedly and resentfully, and explains to them constantly that he is only doing this for them under the duress of state & corporate blackmail and that he thinks they are responsible for their own troubles and should have the decency to afford his regular fees, everybody wins. > > This is a whoosh, right? Like a Harrier flying low and slow directly overhead. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/266 "2010-09-10T20:23:27Z")
> [@The\_Luggage](#): > > I’m with **The Second Stone** - where else do we see this requirement to work for free? My plumber sure as shit won’t fail to charge me when the tap needs fixing - and he makes an hourly rate that would make a UK legal aid lawyer gasp. This I agree with. > [@](#): > > Of course, the UK has no _requirement_ for pro bono work - but the great and the good make it clear we ought to do it. Tho I am unaware of any requirements this side of the pond, such mandatory proposals are floated regularly. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/267 "2010-09-10T20:32:17Z")
If plumbing were an integral part of the machinery of government, a part which everyone has a right to, then a plumber may be required to do pro bono work. As a lawyer, you are also an officer of the court, with responsibilities and expectations that perhaps a private service provider in a less governmentally-central field would not have. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/268 "2010-09-10T20:46:49Z")
Mr E, you are once again conflating “what is required by the rules” and “what is ethical according to general notions of right and wrong.” You also still seem to not understand what it means for something to be required or not, and you’re still using your pejoratuve argument of me simply fearing punishment. So, I guess we are done with this debate (you lost, by the way). As for my solution to the “problem” of some people not being able to afford a lawyer–I see it as just another instance of someone wanting something they can’t afford. They should attempt to get it through charity, and, failing that, go without. Public funding of legal representation should only be for criminal cases. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/269 "2010-09-10T21:12:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Mr E, you are once again conflating “what is required by the rules” and “what is ethical according to general notions of right and wrong.” You also still seem to not understand what it means for something to be required or not, and you’re still using your pejoratuve argument of me simply fearing punishment. So, I guess we are done with this debate (you lost, by the way). > > As for my solution to the “problem” of some people not being able to afford a lawyer–I see it as just another instance of someone wanting something they can’t afford. They should attempt to get it through charity, and, failing that, go without. Public funding of legal representation should only be for criminal cases. For some reason, your first paragraph reminds me of a banner hanging on an aircraft carrier’s flight deck - I don’t quite know why … Skip it. I’m curious about your belief that public funding of legal services should only be available in criminal matters. What of, for example, landlord/tenant issues? Big cities, sadly, often have slumlords who exploit vulnerable tenants in all sorts of ways - denying they received rent and attempting eviction, refusing to fix mold or repair appliances, refusing to return deposits, and so on. These are serious problems - a wrongful eviction is an obvious disaster, and even the loss of a deposit check can be a serious setback for low-income folks. If these people can’t find an appropriate charity, would you say they should just take their lumps? For that matter, you’re aware that a lot of charities, including legal aid nonprofits, get government grants - aren’t you? Should we cut those out as well? And if we do this, don’t we run the danger that a lot of poor families will lose housing, or end up in dangerously substandard housing, for want of remedy through the courts? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Luggage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@The\_Luggage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Luggage)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/270 "2010-09-10T21:33:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > If plumbing were an integral part of the machinery of government, a part which everyone has a right to, then a plumber may be required to do pro bono work. As a lawyer, you are also an officer of the court, with responsibilities and expectations that perhaps a private service provider in a less governmentally-central field would not have. Guess I am de-lurked for good. Does this then apply to politicians? Judges? Policemen? Civil Servants by the million - that’d include social security, the tax office, the whole lot. Why single out lawyers? We’re all just cogs in the wheel. The answer is probably this: money. But that takes me back to my plumber. Or, for that matter, my judge - many of 'em make a good deal more than the average solicitor. I don’t buy it otherwise. In what other field do we say: you’re important, you make good dough, you should do shit for free? Compare your average lawyer to, say, the chief exec of BP. Where’s the call for him to do 200 hours a year for zip? Still think it stinks. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/271 "2010-09-10T21:43:11Z")
Has a policeman ever charged you for his services? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Luggage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@The\_Luggage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Luggage)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/272 "2010-09-10T21:46:08Z")
If you’re replying to me then: of course he has. I pay my taxes to pay his wages, and his pension, and he gets paid according to the hours of work he does. And gets overtime, too, if he works extra. I know of no cop, anywhere, told “work a few hours for free tomorrow”. I’m sure some do. But not many, I’d wager. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/273 "2010-09-10T21:48:03Z")
Or a judge? ETA - and as many have said, pro bono hours are often billable. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Luggage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@The\_Luggage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Luggage)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/274 "2010-09-10T21:52:10Z")
Hold on - are we now suggesting Judges and policemen work for free? I’ll vote for that. It’s a poor analogy. They are paid for the work they do, and in the case of the police, it’s by the hour. And they are not routinely asked “do some for free”. I fail to see the point. Public servants do not work pro bono, as a rule. They are paid. How do the judge/police examples help? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/275 "2010-09-10T21:54:30Z")
Mr E–ive got two words for you re landlord/tenant issues: pro se. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/276 "2010-09-10T22:13:30Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And while I agree with most of what you are saying, I think the problem of access to legal services is a societal one, not one that can be solved by the legal profession itself. And the overwhelming majority of decision makers in the government that orders our society are lawyers. The judicial branch is run exclusively by lawyers turned judges. Judges want to play golf, go on local bar association junkets and basket weave. I know a few very old retired judges that donate their time to running settlement conferences. This is essential, but in the last 25 years settlement conferences have also turned into a free market free for all. The free market has its place, but the judicial system is not part of that place. Nothing could be worse than for settlement judges and arbitrators to be competing for services. They are interested in repeat services. That, however, is a whole nuther rant. > [@Bricker](#): > > Man’s got a point. Unless you were being sarcastic, it’s a sign of the apocalpyse. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Man’s got a point. > > He does. I don’t agree that pro bono requirements are somehow “dishonorable”, or that lawyers are indifferent to it. Well, even a stopped watch is right twice a day. And Rand Rover is another such watch on this issue. It is dishonorable to swear to uphold and support a constitution and set of laws that most people don’t have access to, uphold a set of canon of ethics that mouth the words that everyone has access and then turn around and say it’s a swell system where a poor person’s access is limited to those instances of finding a lawyer willing to take food out of his/her family’s mouths to do that. Yes, I know of no doctor who wouldn’t do the same thing, but doctor’s actually care about individual human beings. > [@The\_Luggage](#): > > Damn. Finally a subject to make me de-lurk. > > I’m with **The Second Stone** - where else do we see this requirement to work for free? My plumber sure as shit won’t fail to charge me when the tap needs fixing - and he makes an hourly rate that would make a UK legal aid lawyer gasp. > > Of course, the UK has no _requirement_ for pro bono work - but the great and the good make it clear we ought to do it. > > My principal peeve is the current description so often seen: “pro bono opportunity”. Opportunity? Like, opportunity to get a hole in the head? Bah. > > And yes, IAAL, and I do some pro bono work. > > Back to lurksville. Love you all (well, many of you), thanks for the entertainment. WTF? Why the hell are all these people agreeing with me? Am I in Bizarro world? And other lawyers agreeing with me? Shit! That ain’t right! Mutherfuckers are supposed to argue about everything. I suppose I deserve it for having agreed with Rand Rover’s result and not his reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Luggage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@The\_Luggage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Luggage)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/277 "2010-09-10T22:18:00Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > WTF? Why the hell are all these people agreeing with me? I apologise. > [@](#): > > Am I in Bizarro world? SDMB = yes > [@](#): > > And other lawyers agreeing with me? Shit! That ain’t right! Mutherfuckers are supposed to argue about everything. I disagree 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/278 "2010-09-10T23:07:06Z")
> [@The\_Luggage](#): > > Damn. Finally a subject to make me de-lurk. > > I’m with **The Second Stone** - where else do we see this requirement to work for free? In my experience it is pretty much the norm in any sort of computing position, especially programmers and sysadmins. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/279 "2010-09-10T23:16:22Z")
> [@The\_Luggage](#): > > I’m with **The Second Stone** - where else do we see this requirement to work for free? My plumber sure as shit won’t fail to charge me when the tap needs fixing - and he makes an hourly rate that would make a UK legal aid lawyer gasp. If it were a crime to give advice about plumbing, without being a licensed plumber, the rules might be different. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/280 "2010-09-10T23:19:00Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > In my experience it is pretty much the norm in any sort of computing position, especially programmers and sysadmins. Professional engineers are also encouraged to do pro bono work. I’ve done it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=15)