# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/301 "2010-09-11T02:43:23Z")
Heh. Whatever you say Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/302 "2010-09-11T03:17:36Z")
I have not read the entire thread, but fuck it, this is the pit. I found an article about people with real jobs doing pro bono work: > [@](#): > > The Foundation, Transportation, and Public Affairs are working in cooperation with the Embassy of Chile to transport four drilling units from the U.S. to help rescue 33 miners trapped underground on August 5 at the San Jose mine near Copiapó, Chile. > > Chilean government officials currently estimate it will take approximately three to four months to rescue the trapped workers with the equipment currently in use. The embassy contacted to help transport four drilling units available in Pennsylvania that could cut the expected time to free the workers in half. Maybe **Rand Rover** could do some pro bono work to help the miners sue their mining company bosses once they are free. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/303 "2010-09-11T05:25:17Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I have not read the entire thread, but fuck it, this is the pit. > > I found an article about people with real jobs doing pro bono work: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Foundation, Transportation, and Public Affairs are working in cooperation with the Embassy of Chile to transport four drilling units from the U.S. to help rescue 33 miners trapped underground on August 5 at the San Jose mine near Copiapó, Chile. > > > > Chilean government officials currently estimate it will take approximately three to four months to rescue the trapped workers with the equipment currently in use. The embassy contacted to help transport four drilling units available in Pennsylvania that could cut the expected time to free the workers in half. > > Maybe **Rand Rover** could do some pro bono work to help the miners sue their mining company bosses once they are free. Yeah, maybe he can help negotiate their time spent in the mine as personal injury leave not subject to taxes! Or the local equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/304 "2010-09-11T05:43:01Z")
Hrm, I do a shitload of free legal work for poor people, and I’m a better lawyer than **Rand Rover** , at least from what I’ve seen from his legal analysis of issues (I’m laying 50/50 that he’s a paralegal or something pretending to be a big firm lawyer). Maybe the less skilled you are, the more you have to value your time and market value in order to keep your self esteem up, kind of like how the lunchladies were always more authoritarian than the actual teachers. And honestly, I wouldn’t hire him for anything but tax law, he seems completely out of touch with everything else going on in the legal world. ETA: (And no, I don’t get paid for that free work) ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/305 "2010-09-11T06:36:45Z")
> [@The\_Luggage](#): > > Hold on - are we now suggesting Judges and policemen work for free? > > I’ll vote for that. > > It’s a poor analogy. They are paid for the work they do, and in the case of the police, it’s by the hour. And they are not routinely asked “do some for free”. > > I fail to see the point. Public servants do not work pro bono, as a rule. They are paid. How do the judge/police examples help? The pay structure for policemen is different, is all. Many people who utilize policemen’s services do not pay for them. So this means when the police arrest some bad guys, or go on a house call, or a patrol a neighborhood, the person(s) they are helping may not paying anything. Yes, every time the police are working they are being paid, but only because those who are not contributing to their salary are being subsidize by those who are. Do you feel lawyers’ pay should be similarly structured, or do you have some other ideas for making legal representation being accessible to all? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Luggage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@The\_Luggage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Luggage)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/306 "2010-09-11T08:55:12Z")
Don’t we all pay for the policemen, through our taxes (those of us who pay tax, anyway)? I think Legal Aid is the best way to make lawyers’ services available to all. The state pays for those who can’t afford it. Our taxes are used to help those less well off. The problem is it’s expensive - but so is health care, the police, education. Resources are finite and in my experience politicians are more likely to plug for any of those 3 than spend extra on justice. Which leaves a hole in representation. But that’s true everywhere isn’t it? If I can’t pay my plumber (sorry to pick on plumbers again) then my leak doesn’t get fixed. If I don’t have the cash to pay for my car fixing, I’m on the bus. But no-one expects plumber/car mechanic work for free. That’s my point. I don’t mind doing pro bono work - but why are the lawyers singled out? One or 2 in this thread suggest it’s because they earn more. Well ok, I accept that, but a) they pay more taxes as a result and b) why then does not every high-earning individual get this expectation? Why does my accountant not offer me free auditing now and then? Can’t the consultant orthopod check out my back for nothing (no - he’s working on the cheap in the NHS - but so are the lawyers doing legal aid work). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/307 "2010-09-11T14:15:02Z")
MOL, you seem to take it as a given that everyone deserves legal representation in all matters for which it may be useful. Why is that? What other services that people perform for compensation do you think everyone should be entitled to regardless of their ability to pay (eg, investment banking services, brand management, housecleaning)? You are also exhibiting the common liberal douche parochial attitude toward the poor. That is, as soon as you decide someone qualifies as one of “the poor,” then that means they are exempt from treatment as a normal human being and become entitled to be taken care of. That’s how you treat pets, not people. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/308 "2010-09-11T14:28:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > MOL, you seem to take it as a given that everyone deserves legal representation in all matters for which it may be useful. Why is that? Going on a limb spitballin’ here but… because it’s one of the founding pillars of the goddamn justice system ? What guarantees it in fact remains, or at least makes an honest effort to be fair and\* just\* ? ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/309 "2010-09-11T14:34:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > MOL, you seem to take it as a given that everyone deserves legal representation in all matters for which it may be useful. Why is that? What other services that people perform for compensation do you think everyone should be entitled to regardless of their ability to pay (eg, investment banking services, brand management, housecleaning)? Because legal representation isn’t isn’t a luxury good, or some natural need, it’s something that is necessary because of the legal system that our society has built. If someone gets sued and they can’t defend themselves, ultimately an agent of the state will be coming to confiscate their property. Also, some people have crazy notions about equality before the law. If someone has been wronged, they should be able to bring a lawsuit even if they’re poor. Kind of like how we prosecute people for murdering poor people even if the poor people couldn’t afford a murder investigation. BTW, I think it’s hilarious that you’re an arch-Randian _tax attorney_. You’re a parasite. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/310 "2010-09-11T14:39:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > That’s how you treat pets, not people. Your parents never let you have a dog, did they… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/311 "2010-09-11T14:47:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > MOL, you seem to take it as a given that everyone deserves legal representation in all matters for which it may be useful. Why is that? What other services that people perform for compensation do you think everyone should be entitled to regardless of their ability to pay (eg, investment banking services, brand management, housecleaning)? > > You are also exhibiting the common liberal douche parochial attitude toward the poor. That is, as soon as you decide someone qualifies as one of “the poor,” then that means they are exempt from treatment as a normal human being and become entitled to be taken care of. That’s how you treat pets, not people. Well, as you’ll recall, that liberal douchebag James Madison said as much in Amendments V and V I. But it’s not like you ought to know what’s in the Constitution… ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/312 "2010-09-11T15:19:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > MOL, you seem to take it as a given that everyone deserves legal representation in all matters for which it may be useful. Why is that? > > Going on a limb spitballin’ here but… because it’s one of the founding pillars of the goddamn justice system ? What guarantees it in fact remains, or at least makes an honest effort to be fair and\* just\* ? We need to flesh out the issues a little better here to properly understand this. Let’s look at Bob and Joe. Both are homeless with not a penny to their name. Bob is accused of murder. Joe has an idea for an invention and wants to patent it. Do you think society has a duty to provide free legal representation to both Bob and Joe? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/313 "2010-09-11T15:20:58Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > MOL, you seem to take it as a given that everyone deserves legal representation in all matters for which it may be useful. Why is that? What other services that people perform for compensation do you think everyone should be entitled to regardless of their ability to pay (eg, investment banking services, brand management, housecleaning)? > > > > You are also exhibiting the common liberal douche parochial attitude toward the poor. That is, as soon as you decide someone qualifies as one of “the poor,” then that means they are exempt from treatment as a normal human being and become entitled to be taken care of. That’s how you treat pets, not people. > > Well, as you’ll recall, that liberal douchebag James Madison said as much in Amendments V and V I. But it’s not like you ought to know what’s in the Constitution… Not sure why you think I don’t support the idea behind those Amendments. You aren’t reading very closely, and you don’t have the mental horsepower to separate out the issues involved here. But thanks for sniping from the sidelines, always appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/314 "2010-09-11T15:21:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > That’s how you treat pets, not people. > > Your parents never let you have a dog, did they… Not after what he did to the cat. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/315 "2010-09-11T15:24:47Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > MOL, you seem to take it as a given that everyone deserves legal representation in all matters for which it may be useful. Why is that? What other services that people perform for compensation do you think everyone should be entitled to regardless of their ability to pay (eg, investment banking services, brand management, housecleaning)? > > Because legal representation isn’t isn’t a luxury good, or some natural need, it’s something that is necessary because of the legal system that our society has built. If someone gets sued and they can’t defend themselves, ultimately an agent of the state will be coming to confiscate their property. Also, some people have crazy notions about equality before the law. If someone has been wronged, they should be able to bring a lawsuit even if they’re poor. Kind of like how we prosecute people for murdering poor people even if the poor people couldn’t afford a murder investigation. You are missing the point. Our society has decided that poor people deserve free legal representation in criminal matters, but not in civil matters. I agree with that determination. But liberal douches take it further (due to their parochial attitude toward the poor) and argue that poor people should be given free legal services for all sorts of other matters. > [@](#): > > BTW, I think it’s hilarious that you’re an arch-Randian _tax attorney_. You’re a parasite. Please demonstrate how I am a parasite. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/316 "2010-09-11T15:46:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Please demonstrate how I am a parasite. Thanks. By remaining a ‘guest’ at SDMB when you seem to be want to state loudly how much money you have/earn. Right? Or maybe that ‘Guest’ listing I see by your ‘name’ is wrong (not sure on this to be honest - if I am, my apologies) If I had a penny to spare, I would happily ‘join’ this Forum as I get quite useful info from it. Repeatedly (thanks SDMB!). I do even turn off AdBlock now and then (despite the recent malware situation, it seems) to give at least something. I honestly regret not having the money to be a Member. I’d bet Rand cares not at all, 'eh? Its just a place he gets his jollies by trying to make himself (herself?) appear to be better than ‘society’, imho 😉 I have lived long enough to realize that Rand’s type of attitude typically will come back and bite 'em in the ass hard later in Life. I also get the feeling that the kid is gonna get its ass kicked numerous times if Rand instills similar ‘values’. Seen it often enough to know that for sure. Its Rand’s type that gives lawyer jokes such popularity (and accuracy, imho). I’ll let someone else fill in the blank here -\> What do you call a thousand ‘Rands’ at bottom of the ocean? Answer: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ As a disclaimer, I realize that there are good-minded lawyers, but such rotten-apples as Rand makes the entire profession MUCH less than ‘honorable’. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/317 "2010-09-11T15:46:53Z")
> [@The\_Luggage](#): > > Don’t we all pay for the policemen, through our taxes (those of us who pay tax, anyway)? Yes, those of us who pay taxes pay for policemen through taxes, and those of us who do not, do not. > [@](#): > > I think Legal Aid is the best way to make lawyers’ services available to all. Curious: What experience do you have with Legal Aid? > [@](#): > > But no-one expects plumber/car mechanic work for free. That’s my point. I don’t mind doing pro bono work - but why are the lawyers singled out? We’ve gone over this, and it has nothing to do with how much they earn. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/318 "2010-09-11T15:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > …What do you call a thousand ‘Rands’ at bottom of the ocean? Answer: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ The Dead Zone? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/319 "2010-09-11T15:49:42Z")
> [@Ionizer](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Please demonstrate how I am a parasite. Thanks. > > By remaining a ‘guest’ at SDMB when you seem to be want to state loudly how much money you have/earn. wat ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/320 "2010-09-11T17:25:40Z")
Bought into a partnership in a 1,000 person firm? I didn’t know Amway had an M&A tax department. Anyway, good luck in avoiding being human being. Glad you find being kicked about on the SDMB to be good therapy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=17)