# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/421 "2010-09-13T14:47:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > You Bricker (the generalist) could become a competent M&A tax lawyer in about a semester by taking an LLM course at NYU and reading the Ginsberg text. > > Maybe. I was trying to parse out the just-released eBay v. Craigslist decision and found my eyes glazing over trying to understand it, and that should be pretty much M&A 101, I would imagine. > > I console myself hoping that there are M&A guys out there whose eyes glaze over at the issue of when a Terry stop becomes an arrest, so we’re hopefully even, but I can’t shake the nagging feeling that I just gravitated to the “easy” practice area. > > And now, of course, it’s moot in that I no longer practice at all. 🙂 The M&A tax guys out there mostly want to be associated with newsworthy deals while still getting home in time for dinner. You’re not missing anything. On your deathbed, you aren’t going to regret not closing that deal or feel your life was well lived because you were one of a hundred lawyers on some merger; on the other hand if you ever run across an innocent defendant who would have gone to jail without you and you get him off or you put a really bad guy behind bars, I think you can look back at your life as a life well lived. I think its why so many corporate law types (this includes tax lawyers) do community stuff when they retire, they spent their entire selling their very expensive services to the highest bidder when they could have done so much more with it. Biglaw firms are packed to the gills with double barreled harvard grads who could have really made a difference in this world but have decided to make a lot of money spellchecking documents. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/422 "2010-09-13T14:57:02Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I know a fellow who, as a partner, did not like how the in-house office festive season party took away from time he and his clerks would otherwise be spending on billable hours (and no, there was nothing urgent that had to be attended to at that time). So while the board rooms were loaded up with food and booze, and the other lawyers and staff in the building cut loose and partied for the last afternoon before the festive season break, this lawyer stayed in his office and directed that his clerks stay in there offices and keep working. He made his point, and was ridiculed for it. His senior clerk made her point by telling him to fuck off, and joined the office party. His junior clerk made her point by quitting on the spot, which severely buggered up his practice for a few weeks, for around here, good clerks are worth their weight in gold, and are not to be found during the festive season. Unfortunately for the partner, he was so intent on billable hours, that he did not grasp the importance of non-billable items, and his responsibility to the firm (to his other partners) to attend to such non-billable items. > > There is a lot more to being a partner than simply being an insulated grinder the way RR is. Hopefully he will grow into his shoes. Are you in the UK? We don’t call them clerks here. There are several types of partners in large law firms. The most common kind is the grinder. These are the workhorses that contribute to the firm in the form of billable hours. The next tier is the minder. These are the lawyers that maintain the relationships of firm clients. They contribute to the firm by maintaining these important relationships and coaxing more work out of current clients for the grinders to work on. The next tier is the finder. These are the rainmakers, they have the reputation and the ability to go out there and bring in new clients. They contribute to the firm by finding new clients for the minders to manage. All partners take on a bit of all three roles but most partners still fall pretty enatly into one of these categories. Most partners start as grinders and evolve their way to minder, most don’t become finders. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/423 "2010-09-13T15:00:14Z")
Canada ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/424 "2010-09-13T15:37:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Damuri, you do tax law? > > Yep. I wanted to be an astronaut but decided being a tax lawyer would be more fun. And we get more ladies. Funny that we haven’t crossed paths before. Also, you showing the love for the ginsburg book may be a clue as to which firm you are at . . . ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/425 "2010-09-13T15:55:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Yep. I wanted to be an astronaut but decided being a tax lawyer would be more fun. > > And we get more ladies. Funny that we haven’t crossed paths before. Also, you showing the love for the ginsburg book may be a clue as to which firm you are at . . . Well I got the one lady I wanted. Its a small world. How do you know our paths haven’t crossed? Its not like my real name is Damuri. I’m not at Fried Frank. I can’t think of a corporate tax department anywhere that does not rely on the big red book. ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/426 "2010-09-13T16:38:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Yep. I wanted to be an astronaut but decided being a tax lawyer would be more fun. > > **And we get more ladies.** Funny that we haven’t crossed paths before. Also, you showing the love for the ginsburg book may be a clue as to which firm you are at . . . Than an astronaut? Somehow I’m not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/427 "2010-09-13T18:14:12Z")
They don’t call them asstronauts for nuthin’. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/428 "2010-09-13T19:05:18Z")
Am I the only who finds it sickly amusing that in the time the OP has spent pissing and moaning and drumming his heels on the floor about not wanting to do any pro bono work, he could have already knocked out his expectation for at least a month? And yes, pretty much everyone who has any sort of specialized skill runs into the expectation that they will do some amount of work for free. If I had a nickel for every time someone called me on the phone or cornered me at a party to ask me a veterinary question, or for every time I answered such a question for someone on this board, I’d have a hell of a lot of nickels. The difference between me and the OP is that these questions don’t come during my working hours when I get paid to answer them. (Well, that, and the fact that I don’t begrudge 20 minutes a week to help people because I’m not an asshole.) The doctors, computer techs, chefs, professional cleaners and organizers, etc. on this board could make similar statements, I promise you. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/429 "2010-09-13T19:19:28Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Am I the only who finds it sickly amusing that in the time the OP has spent pissing and moaning and drumming his heels on the floor about not wanting to do any pro bono work, he could have already knocked out his expectation for at least a month? Yeah, but \*this \*way he doesn’t run the risk of being stalked and raped and terribly beaten. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/430 "2010-09-13T19:52:53Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yeah, but \*this \*way he doesn’t run the risk of being stalked and raped and terribly beaten. Or something. That one left me laughing, for I really don’t see how doing pro bono tax work for a charity as opposed to billable tax work for a charity means putting one’s self and one’s family at physical risk. I guess that transactional tax lawyers must lead very dangerous lives as compared to the rest of us schmucks. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/431 "2010-09-13T20:01:52Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > Yeah, but \*this \*way he doesn’t run the risk of being stalked and raped and terribly beaten. Or something. > > That one left me laughing, for I really don’t see how doing pro bono tax work for a charity as opposed to billable tax work for a charity means putting one’s self and one’s family at physical risk. I guess that transactional tax lawyers must lead very dangerous lives as compared to the rest of us schmucks. It seems like the greater risk would come from his actual clients than from anyone he does pro bono work for. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/432 "2010-09-13T20:11:12Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > > [@Muffin](#): > > > > That one left me laughing, for I really don’t see how doing pro bono tax work for a charity as opposed to billable tax work for a charity means putting one’s self and one’s family at physical risk. I guess that transactional tax lawyers must lead very dangerous lives as compared to the rest of us schmucks. > > It seems like the greater risk would come from his actual clients than from anyone he does pro bono work for. Yeah, his regular clients can probably afford to hire…contractors. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/433 "2010-09-13T20:17:07Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > a), but Rand isn’t being asked to work for free. It’s his company that takes the knock, he gets paid his salary regardless, exactly like an emergency room doctor working on a homeless guy. > > **If he really is a partner** , then the odds are that he will not get paid for pro bono work, for usually partners do not run on straight salary. Yeah, there’s the rub… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/434 "2010-09-13T20:18:40Z")
> [@elninost0rm](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > **And we get more ladies.** > > Than an astronaut? > > Somehow I’m not so sure. Yeah, I hear astronauts get all the Tang they want. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/435 "2010-09-13T20:26:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, I hear astronauts get all the Tang they want. It’s because of the size of their rockets. They generate a hell of a lot of thrust. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/436 "2010-09-13T21:58:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, I hear astronauts get all the Tang they want. :: golf clap :: ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/437 "2010-09-13T22:00:09Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > Yeah, but \*this \*way he doesn’t run the risk of being stalked and raped and terribly beaten. Or something. > > That one left me laughing, for I really don’t see how doing pro bono tax work for a charity as opposed to billable tax work for a charity means putting one’s self and one’s family at physical risk. I guess that transactional tax lawyers must lead very dangerous lives as compared to the rest of us schmucks. My sister the tax lawyer does her pro bono work in NYC, it doesn’t seem to scare her. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/438 "2010-09-13T22:18:12Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Am I the only who finds it sickly amusing that in the time the OP has spent pissing and moaning and drumming his heels on the floor about not wanting to do any pro bono work, he could have already knocked out his expectation for at least a month? > > And yes, pretty much everyone who has any sort of specialized skill runs into the expectation that they will do some amount of work for free. If I had a nickel for every time someone called me on the phone or cornered me at a party to ask me a veterinary question, or for every time I answered such a question for someone on this board, I’d have a hell of a lot of nickels. The difference between me and the OP is that these questions don’t come during my working hours when I get paid to answer them. (Well, that, and the fact that I don’t begrudge 20 minutes a week to help people because I’m not an asshole.) The doctors, computer techs, chefs, professional cleaners and organizers, etc. on this board could make similar statements, I promise you. LOL, you don’t think tax lawyers don’t get pummeled with tax questions? I don’t d practice the sort of tax law that would be relevant to individuals or even small businesses. I couldn’t tell you what the standard deduction is this year or how to calculate AMT but I get these sort of questions so often I’ve learned some of this stuff. It would be as if you were a vet at a zoo specializing in Pachyderms and constantly getting pummeled with questions about housecats and chihuahuas. That’s not what pro-bono means. Pro-bono would be if your licensing board “encouraged” you to spend a wekk at the animal shelter every year. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/439 "2010-09-13T22:24:51Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > Yeah, but \*this \*way he doesn’t run the risk of being stalked and raped and terribly beaten. Or something. > > That one left me laughing, for I really don’t see how doing pro bono tax work for a charity as opposed to billable tax work for a charity means putting one’s self and one’s family at physical risk. I guess that transactional tax lawyers must lead very dangerous lives as compared to the rest of us schmucks. Its not that. Its that transactional tax lawyers have time to take walks, the other transactional lawyers pretty much get an IV and a raid bucket setup at their desk so they don’t have to leave their keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/440 "2010-09-13T22:33:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Like I said, these are not the sort of cases that you would expect from a biglaw firm’s pro-bono coordinator, political asylum cases maybe, landlord tenant? Not so much. > > BTW, having a lawyer always helps. You can go pro-se in tax court too and the tax court has special rules about how you treat pro-se litigants but it doesn’t mean that you wouldn’t be better off with a lawyer. There are still ways real estate lawyers can help the less fortunate. A few years ago I had a landlord-tenant case for thousands in back rent. I contacted the New York Bar Association which had a legal-aid program that they, for each (short application) would recommend three attorneys you could consult for 30 minutes (I think the fee was $30.00/each). I luckily got a very good and conscientious one on the first try. He not only gave me advice and told me he had confidence that I could handle the follow-up pre- and in court myself, he actualy made himself available for an extra 15-minute call at no extra charge. I won a year’s abatement on my rate, making the $30.00 well worth it; more than that, the availability of such a program and his being such a skilled and conscientious advocate that helped bring a measure of justice to someone with very shallow pockets indeed is what pro bono is all about. Also, even when you get to court, the landlords will (most) always have attorneys there. They and judges may be dealing with those on cases on a more factual basis but the fact that any settlements/agreements reached can be cleverly constructed. They will be written in such a way that, in cases where there’s back rent owed due to many repair issues, the poor tenant ends up signing an agreement (that does repairs in stages and takes payment) that he/she is held to, even as the landlord weasels out of the deal by not showing up in the allotted time period (and making excuses), or providng such shoddy work, appliances and/or repairs that the tenant has effectively been bilked out of the back rent and in no better position than when they started. I’ve observiced many such stories like this, from the tenant side, as well as my tenure working at a real estate law firm. Trust me, it always helps to have an attorney, even a pro se lawyer that _may or may not_ be available once your case reached the docket. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=23)