# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Doxy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Doxy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doxy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/681 "2010-09-21T16:06:53Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > > [@elucidator](#): > > > > If you turn yourself in, it will save us the trouble of hunting you down. > > What!? Many Republican attorneys willingly do pro Boehner work! And what, exactly, is wrong with being pro-boner?? Why, I’ve been pro-bonor my entire adult life! And at least half of my childhood (if you count adolescence as part of childhood, that is). As a matter of fact, I’m so pro-boner that I’ve been known to dress provocatively in an effort to encourage more of them! _sweet smile_ ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/682 "2010-09-21T16:11:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And is probably in either Chicago or Springfield, because those are probably the only places in Illinois that would have 1000-lawyer firms (Chicago because it’s Chicago (duh!) and Springfield because it’s the capital). I’m thinking Chicagoland because I’ve seen him expressing interest in Chicago SDMB get-togethers. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … and has a bright teenage son who spends too much time on the computer … Would you get off this fucking retarded idea that \*\*Rand Rover \*\*is a child? Or are you going to suggest that he hired someone to come as him to SDMB events, too? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/683 "2010-09-21T16:26:53Z")
> [@Doxy](#): > > > [@Polycarp](#): > > > > What!? Many Republican attorneys willingly do pro Boehner work! > > And what, exactly, is wrong with being pro-boner?? > Why, I’ve been pro-bonor my entire adult life! > And at least half of my childhood (if you count adolescence as part of childhood, that is). > > As a matter of fact, I’m so pro-boner that I’ve been known to dress provocatively in an effort to encourage more of them! _sweet smile_ Don’t forget about Dick Army, Colon Powell, and George Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/684 "2010-09-21T16:35:47Z")
Hrm, I finally dug up the threads I was thinking of ([1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525859))([2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526335)), and I have come to the realization that either I’m conflating them with discussion of another poster or there was a followup “this is what the Dopefest was like” thread I’m missing. **ElvisL1ves** , I retract any part of my statements that in any way cast you as an idiot for not believing \*\*RR \*\*is an adult after people have met him (at least unless we turn up a post where someone has met him). I still think you’re wrong, just not quite so retarded. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/685 "2010-09-21T16:42:03Z")
Gee, thanks a pantload. :rolleyes: If he’s a kid, that at least gives him an excuse. If you want to take that excuse away, then go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/686 "2010-09-21T16:44:25Z")
Yeah, I do. Because I genuinely believe he really is this much of a petty, smallminded adult, deserving of no consideration whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/687 "2010-09-21T16:46:55Z")
> [@Doxy](#): > > …As a matter of fact, I’m so pro-boner that I’ve been known to dress provocatively in an effort to encourage more of them! _sweet smile_ I would like to respond, but the mail carrier just brought me another handful of restraining orders. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/688 "2010-09-21T16:47:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Hrm, I finally dug up the threads I was thinking of ([1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525859))([2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526335)), and I have come to the realization that either I’m conflating them with discussion of another poster or there was a followup “this is what the Dopefest was like” thread I’m missing. That first link actually raises an interesting parallel to this thread. Specifically: > [@Equipoise](#): > > My first thought too would be that if Rand Rover is at a gathering, he’d pay the exact amount of what he consumed, or far less (at the least, no tip money, I would guess), leaving others to make up the difference. Tipping has a lot of similarities to pro bono work: it isn’t _required_ that you leave a tip, and no real harm will come to you if you don’t (unless you go back to the same restaurant and the server you stiffed remembers you), but there is a very strong social expectation in place and most people will consider you a total asshole if you don’t tip. So I’m wondering if **RR** does tip, and if he does, what distinguishes it from pro bono work. After all, why part with a penny more than is required of you for the meal transaction? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/689 "2010-09-21T16:50:42Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yeah, I do. Because I genuinely believe he really is this much of a petty, smallminded adult, deserving of no consideration whatsoever. Are you sure? That requires believing there has been a woman so desperate as to bear him a child. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/690 "2010-09-21T17:06:43Z")
These statements: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, Bricker said “impose a requirement,” and he said he didn’t want penalties for not doing pro bono, so I assumed he meant there must be penalties for not trying to do pro bono. Otherwise, it’s not a requirement. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The model rules plainly say that a lawyer “should aspire” to do pro bono, but nothing happens to those who don’t aspire. Therefore, aspiring is not a requirement. Are in conflict with this statement: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I do agree with you that it is possible for a lawyer to provide representation that is not competent but in fact suffer no penalty due to the exigencies of proving what is and is not competent. However, that doesn’t mean that providing competent representation is not a requirment (i.e., because there’s not always a penalty for providing incompetent representation). It just shows that sometimes it’s difficult to prove incompetence. In the first two, you claim that the _sine qua non_ of a “requirement” is the existence of a sanction for non-compliance. In the latter, you acknowledge a situation can exist where a valid requirement exists but is not met, and yet a sanction does not exist, owing to the practical difficulties of imposing a sanction. Why (apart from the obviously self-serving nature of your analysis) do you conclude that the pro bono requirement is not simply a case of a valid requirement with no sanction, owing to the practical difficulties of imposing a sanction? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/691 "2010-09-21T18:06:14Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > So I’m wondering if **RR** does tip, and if he does, what distinguishes it from pro bono work. After all, why part with a penny more than is required of you for the meal transaction? > [@Bricker](#): > > These statements: […] Are in conflict with this statement: […] Why (apart from the obviously self-serving nature of your analysis) do you conclude that the pro bono requirement is not simply a case of a valid requirement with no sanction, owing to the practical difficulties of imposing a sanction? It’s so \*cute \*how you guys think \*\*Rand \*\*is going to do anything but bluster, backtrack, or blow you off. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you sure? That requires believing there has been a woman so desperate as to bear him a child. There are women out there who are just as childish as **Rand Rover**. Women were writing Ted Bundy love letters when he was in prison; I have no doubt that someone who’s merely a rich asshole could find someone similarly shallow to suck him off. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/692 "2010-09-21T18:14:23Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > It’s so \*cute \*how you guys think \*\*Rand \*\*is going to do anything but bluster, backtrack, or blow you off. Oh, I don’t expect anything more substantial from him than insults about my intelligence. But it is fun to put obstacles in his way and see if he trips. And hey, he might even reveal that he _doesn’t_ tip, ensuring this thread goes on for another 30 pages. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/693 "2010-09-21T18:30:21Z")
Oh, and FWIW, I think tipping is the better analogy here. There are definitely potential sanctions to poor job performance, even above the level of getting you fired or sued: no promotions, no bonuses, bad raises, and putting yourself at the head of the line for layoffs. Not tipping, on the other hand, seldom has any effect on you outside of getting frowny faces from people who think you should tip. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/694 "2010-09-21T19:03:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > These statements: > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Well, Bricker said “impose a requirement,” and he said he didn’t want penalties for not doing pro bono, so I assumed he meant there must be penalties for not trying to do pro bono. Otherwise, it’s not a requirement. > > Are in conflict with this statement: > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > I do agree with you that it is possible for a lawyer to provide representation that is not competent but in fact suffer no penalty due to the exigencies of proving what is and is not competent. However, that doesn’t mean that providing competent representation is not a requirment (i.e., because there’s not always a penalty for providing incompetent representation). It just shows that sometimes it’s difficult to prove incompetence. > > In the first two, you claim that the _sine qua non_ of a “requirement” is the existence of a sanction for non-compliance. > > In the latter, you acknowledge a situation can exist where a valid requirement exists but is not met, and yet a sanction does not exist, owing to the practical difficulties of imposing a sanction. > > Why (apart from the obviously self-serving nature of your analysis) do you conclude that the pro bono requirement is not simply a case of a valid requirement with no sanction, owing to the practical difficulties of imposing a sanction? You are using the phrase “practical difficulties of imposing a sanction” in two different ways in the different contexts. In the pro bono context, the rules themselves clearly impose no sanction. In the competence context, the rules do impose a sanction, but reality may intrude to make the sanction not actually imposed in every situation where it should be. Let’s look at speeding again. The rules clearly state that a driver shall no T speed and clearly provide a sanction for speeding. Therefore, it is a requirement that a driver not speed. The fact that as a practical matter many people do speed without being sanctioned does not mean that not speeding is not a requirement. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/695 "2010-09-21T19:08:11Z")
All fucking right! **Bricker** and **RR** in a knock down, drag out struggle over precise semantic parsing! Fuck WWF, this is the shit! ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/696 "2010-09-21T19:12:06Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I have no doubt that someone who’s merely a rich asshole could find someone similarly shallow to suck him off. Where the hell am I going wrong then? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Doxy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Doxy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doxy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/697 "2010-09-21T19:16:59Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > I have no doubt that someone who’s merely a rich asshole could find someone similarly shallow to suck him off. > > Where the hell am I going wrong then? ☹ You didn’t say “Pretty please”??? Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/698 "2010-09-21T19:17:09Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > Hrm, I finally dug up the threads I was thinking of ([1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525859))([2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526335)), and I have come to the realization that either I’m conflating them with discussion of another poster or there was a followup “this is what the Dopefest was like” thread I’m missing. > > That first link actually raises an interesting parallel to this thread. Specifically: > > > [@Equipoise](#): > > > > My first thought too would be that if Rand Rover is at a gathering, he’d pay the exact amount of what he consumed, or far less (at the least, no tip money, I would guess), leaving others to make up the difference. > > Tipping has a lot of similarities to pro bono work: it isn’t _required_ that you leave a tip, and no real harm will come to you if you don’t (unless you go back to the same restaurant and the server you stiffed remembers you), but there is a very strong social expectation in place and most people will consider you a total asshole if you don’t tip. > > So I’m wondering if **RR** does tip, and if he does, what distinguishes it from pro bono work. After all, why part with a penny more than is required of you for the meal transaction? I don’t understand why people would take my comments in this thread to mean that I only do things that are required. I guess they just see all the discussion of what a set of rules require and get confused. To be clear, nothing I’ve stated in this thread would lead a reasonable person to believe that I don’t tip simply because there’s no set of rules requiring tipping. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/699 "2010-09-21T19:21:58Z")
SFG, we’ve always had a little friendly banter going, but this thread seems to have caused Ýou to take a turn to the dark side. Is it because I said your legs looked fat in that picture ýou posted? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/700 "2010-09-21T19:24:15Z")
From the OP: > [@](#): > > Also, of course the email mentioned our “ethical obligation” to do pro bono work, which just chaps my hide. There’s a similar ethical obligation to tipping, with the same set of requirements/lack thereof. You have a tendency to stand on sociopathic principles even when it makes you look like a grade-A jackass. So it’s not like it’s an unreasonable thing to question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=36)