# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/901 "2010-09-24T00:58:46Z")
Oh noes!! I am neither moral nor ethical!! All you really said was “I donlt like you.” That’s it. I know you think Ýou have the ability to tap into the realm of the moral and the ethical and determine that which is and that which isn’t. But no such realm exists. Existence only involves us meatbags crawling around. Please get over yourself and stop trying to elevate your likes and dislikes into some pronouncement from on high. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/902 "2010-09-24T01:13:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Oh noes!! I am neither moral nor ethical!! > > All you really said was “I donlt like you.” That’s it. I know you think Ýou have the ability to tap into the realm of the moral and the ethical and determine that which is and that which isn’t. But no such realm exists. Existence only involves us meatbags crawling around. > > Please get over yourself and stop trying to elevate your likes and dislikes into some pronouncement from on high. Thank you. You, Fucktard, would NEVER make in private practice… If I were you, and THANK to TPTB that I am not, I would BOW to the organization that dared to hire an ASSHOLE like myself (you)… I do more REAL uncompensated PUBLIC service in a week that you have done in a lifetime… You, Range Rover,are the bile in Satan’s mouth when he pukes out assholes … Just STFU and give a little bit back…think about it.😉 tsfr ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/903 "2010-09-24T02:05:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Not a man. But I appreciate the sentiment. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t _anyone_ remember 1970’s beer commercials anymore? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/904 "2010-09-24T02:14:00Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Doesn’t _anyone_ remember 1970’s beer commercials anymore? Here’s to good friends, tonight is kinda special? Sorry…I was something like six years old. I don’t know if that was for a good beer or a lousy one… ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/905 "2010-09-24T04:48:44Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > You swore an oath to act ethically. Acting ethically involves the pro bono obligation. By failing to aspire to provide service, you are acting unethically, and in violation of your oath, which is an oath you freely took. While there is no official sanction for this violation of your oath, it is a reflection on your character. He who steals my purse steals trash, and all that. > > That is some shittastic analysis. > > First off MRPC 6.1 is not imperative - you should aspire. Whoop de doo. Not aspiring is not an ethical violation. > > Additionally, Illinois (IIRC where RR practices) has some very interesting footnotes about exactly why they declined to incorporate MRPC 6.1 in their official rules of conduct. Well, you’re wrong. For a start, I haven’t mentioned MRPC 6.1 - I’ve looked to the Illinois rules themselves. And as I said, the ethical violation is in not aspiring to do pro bono, as opposed to not not doing it. **Rand Rover** swore an oath to act ethically, and the rules define one part of acting ethically as including aspiring to do pro bono work. He does not aspire to do pro bono work. Look back a whole bunch of pages - people (myself included) have linked to the Illinois rules, in particular the introduction. Not doing the pro bono work isn’t the problem. It is the viewpoint of having no aspiration of doing it that is. Had **Rand Rover** ’s point been that his firm was unreasonable sending an email asking him to do pro bono work when his schedule was already completely full with billable work that he was required to do, then this would be a different conversation. But that isn’t what he said. So, before criticizing analysis, it might help if you read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/906 "2010-09-24T05:31:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Oh noes!! I am neither moral nor ethical!! > > All you really said was “I donlt like you.” That’s it. I know you think Ýou have the ability to tap into the realm of the moral and the ethical and determine that which is and that which isn’t. But no such realm exists. Existence only involves us meatbags crawling around. > > Please get over yourself and stop trying to elevate your likes and dislikes into some pronouncement from on high. Thank you. Something you ought to know: if you embrace moral skepticism, you can’t pick and choose which moral pronouncements you will or will not endorse. Under moral skepticism, all moral pronouncements of all kinds go out the window, including these: - One ought to take out one’s garbage. - Hitler was evil. - We ought to embrace capitalism. - We ought to not embrace capitalism. - One ought to not commit rape. - We ought to not force lawyers to work pro bono. Et cetera. If you’re going to be a moral skeptic, you have stop thinking that anything is right or wrong, period. This includes acting on moral beliefs, because if nothing is right or wrong, there is nothing right or wrong about having moral beliefs and acting upon them. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/907 "2010-09-24T05:34:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Oh noes!! I am neither moral nor ethical!! > > All you really said was “I donlt like you.” That’s it. I know you think Ýou have the ability to tap into the realm of the moral and the ethical and determine that which is and that which isn’t. But no such realm exists. Existence only involves us meatbags crawling around. I have an honest serious question for you, **Rand Rover**. I’m not sure if you’d like to answer it, but here goes: Most folks I know have their own moral/ethical codes, and I suspect that at many times most of us find ourselves in a position where our own beliefs conflict with what is expected of us. Sometimes the law is wrong, or late catching up with the will of the people. Marijuana laws, for example. Sometimes, injustice is allowed. I’m thinking payday loans @ 259% interest might be pretty damn wrong, despite being legal. So anyways, what’s been going on here seems to be a major rupture between your moral code, and the one most other folks who have been posting seem to agree on. I’m somewhat concerned that you might fail to see that there is ANY reason to act beyond pure right-away self-interest. Any thoughts? Also, really, when anyone cranks out fairly good verse with you as it’s subject, the polite thing to do is compliment them on their talent, appreciate their effort, and not to just fixate on their thighs. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/908 "2010-09-24T05:36:14Z")
[QUOTE=Villa] …violation is in not aspiring to do pro bono… [/QUOTE] Well, I’m just an old country chicken, but I don’t quite grasp how someone could ever be charged with conspiracy not to aspire, outside of a direct public testimony of total dickitude and interpersonal nullity. I mean, its not exactly a tangible thing, is it, aspiration? Its not like the candlestick in the library, next to the still-warm corpse of Colonel Mustard. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/909 "2010-09-24T05:39:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [QUOTE=Villa] > …violation is in not aspiring to do pro bono… Well, I’m just an old country chicken, but I don’t quite grasp how someone could ever be charged with conspiracy not to aspire, outside of a direct public testimony of total dickitude and interpersonal nullity. I mean, its not exactly a tangible thing, is it, aspiration? Its not like the candlestick in the library, next to the still-warm corpse of Colonel Mustard. [/QUOTE] That’s the hilarious thing. It’s _not_ hard to “aspire.” In fact, you have to work at not aspiring. You have to very specifically say “Fuck this pro bono bullshit and fuck the people who think I should be doing it.” Which is, in fact, what **Rand** has been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/910 "2010-09-24T06:58:15Z")
What many here fail to understand is that RR presents a straightforward application of Objectivist ethics. Ayn Rand fanatics don’t just get their pants in a twist about those who use Big Guv to redistribute income. They also strenuously object to those using “Moral guilt” to “confiscate the accomplishments of society’s productive members”. Or so I understand from wiki’s entry on _Atlas Shrugged_. You see, objectivists have hearts of delicate crystal: they are easily perturbed and don’t like to be subjected to moral suasion. It’s too much for them, so they lash out. Some may say that if you’re moral system is vulnerable to guilt tripping, then maybe there’s something about the human experience that you’re shutting out: maybe you’re screwed up. Krugman’s blog today didn’t go that far necessarily: > [@Paul Krugman](#): > > The best line I’ve ever heard about Ayn Rand’s influence: > > ``` > There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/911 "2010-09-24T12:57:31Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well, you’re wrong. For a start, I haven’t mentioned MRPC 6.1 - I’ve looked to the Illinois rules themselves. And as I said, the ethical violation is in not aspiring to do pro bono, as opposed to not not doing it. **Rand Rover** swore an oath to act ethically, and the rules define one part of acting ethically as including aspiring to do pro bono work. He does not aspire to do pro bono work. > > Look back a whole bunch of pages - people (myself included) have linked to the Illinois rules, in particular the introduction. > > Not doing the pro bono work isn’t the problem. It is the viewpoint of having no aspiration of doing it that is. Had **Rand Rover** ’s point been that his firm was unreasonable sending an email asking him to do pro bono work when his schedule was already completely full with billable work that he was required to do, then this would be a different conversation. But that isn’t what he said. > > So, before criticizing analysis, it might help if you read the thread. There is absolutely no ethical rule to aspire to, perform, or otherwise engage in pro bono legal representation in Illinois. I don’t know what the fuck you’re reading. The words “pro bono” only occur in the comments section, which you should know are as binding as jack shit. And the usage of the term, in context, makes it impossible to arrive at any conclusion that one is obligated to do or aspire to do pro bono service. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/912 "2010-09-24T12:59:44Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@elucidator](#): > > > > Well, I’m just an old country chicken, but I don’t quite grasp how someone could ever be charged with conspiracy not to aspire, outside of a direct public testimony of total dickitude and interpersonal nullity. I mean, its not exactly a tangible thing, is it, aspiration? Its not like the candlestick in the library, next to the still-warm corpse of Colonel Mustard. > > That’s the hilarious thing. It’s _not_ hard to “aspire.” In fact, you have to work at not aspiring. You have to very specifically say “Fuck this pro bono bullshit and fuck the people who think I should be doing it.” Which is, in fact, what **Rand** has been doing. that still isn’t a violation, for the mandate is that you “should” aspire, not “must” aspire. you can perfectly well say “fuck this pro bono bullshit and fuck the people who think I should be doing it” and never run afoul of an edict that commands you to “should” do something. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/913 "2010-09-24T13:10:54Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Oh noes!! I am neither moral nor ethical!! > > > > All you really said was “I donlt like you.” That’s it. I know you think Ýou have the ability to tap into the realm of the moral and the ethical and determine that which is and that which isn’t. But no such realm exists. Existence only involves us meatbags crawling around. > > > > Please get over yourself and stop trying to elevate your likes and dislikes into some pronouncement from on high. Thank you. > > Something you ought to know: if you embrace moral skepticism, you can’t pick and choose which moral pronouncements you will or will not endorse. Under moral skepticism, all moral pronouncements of all kinds go out the window, including these: > > - One ought to take out one’s garbage. > - Hitler was evil. > - We ought to embrace capitalism. > - We ought to not embrace capitalism. > - One ought to not commit rape. > - We ought to not force lawyers to work pro bono. > > Et cetera. If you’re going to be a moral skeptic, you have stop thinking that anything is right or wrong, period. This includes acting on moral beliefs, because if nothing is right or wrong, there is nothing right or wrong about having moral beliefs aond acting upon them. What made you think I needed to be told this? You have any other obvious observations you want to lay on me? ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/914 "2010-09-24T13:22:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > > > Something you ought to know: if you embrace moral skepticism, you can’t pick and choose which moral pronouncements you will or will not endorse. Under moral skepticism, all moral pronouncements of all kinds go out the window, including these: > > > > - One ought to take out one’s garbage. > > - Hitler was evil. > > - We ought to embrace capitalism. > > - We ought to not embrace capitalism. > > - One ought to not commit rape. > > - We ought to not force lawyers to work pro bono. > > > > Et cetera. If you’re going to be a moral skeptic, you have stop thinking that anything is right or wrong, period. This includes acting on moral beliefs, because if nothing is right or wrong, there is nothing right or wrong about having moral beliefs aond acting upon them. > > What made you think I needed to be told this? You have any other obvious observations you want to lay on me? Psst…I don’t think his intention was to make sure you were informed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/915 "2010-09-24T13:56:51Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 22? You reading the large type edition or something? It’s 18 for me. I have it set to show 40 posts per page. Don’t remember what the default is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/916 "2010-09-24T14:02:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > You call that a handicap? I call it selecting for people like **Rand**. Just like car dealerships tend to select for aggressive hard sellers. Well most tax lawyers go into because the hours are better than theya re for corporate lawyers and you actually come in contact with the law. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/917 "2010-09-24T14:09:38Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > There is literally no reason why tax lawyers are any less capable of performing pro bono work than corporate attorneys but for some reason, there is usually one guy in the tax department that carries the whole department in the pro bono arena and you just KNOW that guy is going to go work for a non profit in the next 3 or 4 years. > > Couldn’t Rand Rover find an extremely rich and powerful corporation willing to let him fulfil his hours of pro bono work just for them ? To ensure they pay less taxes or something ? The sad thing is that there are a lot of things pro bono that I think rand would enjoy doing. Its not all war crimes trubunals and microfinance. He could do stuff for his church or his community. He may in fact be doing this stuff already. He just seems to be against pro-bono requiremnts on principle. He has some sort of mental roadblock that either says that its wrong to ask lawyers to do work for free OR he just doesn’t want to admit he was being a bit whiny when he complained about taht email. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/918 "2010-09-24T14:13:18Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > It’s actually a structure [with \*two \*refrains](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanelle). So its “Rand is a fucking tard” AND “we can all see he lied” > [@](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > I made the same mistake because she plays a tank (chicks are usually healers or go pew pew) but it turns out she has boobs. > > Always fun the first time I open my mouth on Vent. Who’s Vent? (I’m horrible, I know, I’ll do more pro-bono to make up for it). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/919 "2010-09-24T14:18:04Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > 1. With respect to my conversation with you, point 2 above doesn’t really matter. You were clearly arguing that I promised to do pro bono (thus imposing on myself a real-life obligation). You have failed to demonstrate I made any such promise. > > Do you feel the same way outside of work? A promise isn’t a promise unless there are explicit penalties for breaking it? Do you tell your wife you’ll take out the trash, then not do it and say you never had an obligation to do it because there are no penalties for not doing it? Do you tell your kid/s that you’ll take them to Disneyworld, and then not go and tell them you don’t have a real-life obligation to take them? You think there aren’t penalties for breaking a promise to your wife (even one as picayune as “I will take out the trash”)? You’re not married are you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/920 "2010-09-24T14:19:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > He still hasn’t explained why tipping is different from pro bono work, either. Well, he never swore and oath to follow rules that include tipping guidelines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=47)