# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/961 "2010-09-26T21:30:09Z")
It better be okay to think you’re a schmuck while being utterly indifferent to how you or your employer or your state or your profession feels about pro bono work, because that’s what I intend to do. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/962 "2010-09-26T21:47:23Z")
yeah that’s OK ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/963 "2010-09-26T21:51:24Z")
What I find most fascinating is that **Rand** has now made 194 posts in this thread trying to defend his position. If we assume it takes, on average, two minutes per post to read other posts and respond to them, this represents 388 minutes, or about 6 1/2 hours. So he’s spent about 30% of the time his firm would like him to spend on pro bono work arguing with anonymous people on a message board about why he shouldn’t have to do it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/964 "2010-09-26T21:58:28Z")
All I was trying to say is that, to me, IMHO, all you’ve said is that you are a selfish, whining schmuck. That simple. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/965 "2010-09-26T22:00:28Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What I find most fascinating is that **Rand** has now made 194 posts in this thread trying to defend his position. If we assume it takes, on average, two minutes per post to read other posts and respond to them, this represents 388 minutes, or about 6 1/2 hours. So he’s spent about 30% of the time his firm would like him to spend on pro bono work arguing with anonymous people on a message board about why he shouldn’t have to do it. 😃 But he’s not helping us, see. It’s helping people for any reason that Randians hate, not wasting time. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/966 "2010-09-26T22:07:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Colibri](#): > > > > What I find most fascinating is that **Rand** has now made 194 posts in this thread trying to defend his position. If we assume it takes, on average, two minutes per post to read other posts and respond to them, this represents 388 minutes, or about 6 1/2 hours. So he’s spent about 30% of the time his firm would like him to spend on pro bono work arguing with anonymous people on a message board about why he shouldn’t have to do it. 😃 > > But he’s not helping us, see. It’s helping people for any reason that Randians hate, not wasting time. actually this isn’t true. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/967 "2010-09-26T22:10:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@pikey\_pete](#): > > > > from my own experiences the words ‘lawyer’ and ‘ethical’ are usually…usually…mutually exclusive. What I really dont get is…why is anyone whining about being expected to do 20 hours of what essentially boils down to being community service per year? That is one week at a part time job per year. Seriously, we all learned waaaaaay back in preschool and kindergarten the importance of sharing. Its a basic part of the mortar that hold society together, or at least that is what most anthropologists say. > > > [@elucidator](#): > > > > Well, most folks know that patience and generostiy are virtues, while intelligence and individuality are only characteristics. Some people get all mixed up about that, and there isn’t much can be done. You open the refigerator door, and the little light goes on, or it doesn’t. All we are is ducks breaking wind, and our farts echo no more than our quacks. > > > > See, its not all just jokes with me, sometimes I’m really fuckn’ deep. > > I think lots of people still have no clue what I’ve been saying in this thread. The initial thing that pissed me off about that email\* was the passive-aggressive United Way BS coercion about it–everyone has a frowny face until they get a happy face. Then, after starting this thread, several posters argued that I have an actual obligation as a lawyer to perform pro bono, and/or that I promised to perform pro bono by becoming a lawyer, both of which I showed to be completely false. > > If you believe that a lawyer has a moral obligation or an ethical obligation to do pro bono (i.e., not an actual obligation in the real world, just some “obligation” imposed by some cosmic sense of right and wrong), then that is totally fine. I’m not arguing with you. I’m fine with you believing that. > > I just don’t happen to share that belief. And that belief of yours imposes no actual obligation on me. I am perfectly free to do pro bono or not do pro bono. As it turns out, I have several reasons for not wanting to do it, so I don’t do it. > > You are perfectly free to think I’m a bad person for not doing pro bono or wanting to do pro bono. However, for those of you that are so jazzed on everyone having “access”\*\* to the justice system and that have gotten on my ass in this thread for not doing pro bono, have you given a single dollar to a legal aid organization? Or is bitching out a lawyer who told you he doesn’t do pro bono the sum total of your contributions to increasing access to the justice system? > > \*BTW, I looked back at it, and it says that the firm has a goal of having every lawyer do 20 hours of pro bono. So, I was right in the OP and wrong in that other post (where I said the firm’s goal was only to have a certain percentage of lawyers do pro bono). Sill, the email itself illustrates that my firm recognizes that pro bono is not an actual obligation like getting enough continuing legal education hours. > > \*\*So sad how liberal douches have perverted a perfectly good word. See also “sustainable.” Well, you have a point. Seriously … if someone, even a large number of someones, thinks I really ought to be doing something, but it is not a legal obligation on me to do that something, and I don’t particularly want to do that something, and there is no bad effect to me for not doing that something, I’ll listen to what they have to say, and then make my own decision as to whether or not to do that something – and probably I won’t. Personally, I think the guidelines suggest strongly that it’s a constituent part of the"good character" qualification for admission to the bar and continuing membership in it, that you do some public interest work, not necessarily unpaid legal advice (“pro bono work” in the common narrow sense). But you’ve made a surprisingly good case that the Illinois bar does not in fact _require_ that, only that you report how much you’ve done if any. (BTW, that “surprisingly” is not a gratuitous insult of your arguing skills, but my surprise that it’s not a mandate but an “aspiration”.) However, you know the current political climate: populist, anti-government, anti-regulatory. And you have managed to piss off a surprisingly large number of Illinois residents, including at least two members of the Illinois bar. How much do you want to bet that this very thread is not a minor contributing element to a near-future revision of the state bar rules to prescribe pro bono work, or alternatively, to de-regulate the practice of tax law – so that paralegal who knows the basics of what you do, and some of the tricks of the trade, but does not have a law degree, can set up as a “corporate tax law advisor” and sell his services for a fraction of what your firm charges for your billables? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/968 "2010-09-26T22:44:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > But he’s not helping us, see. It’s helping people for any reason that Randians hate, not wasting time. > > actually this isn’t true. But you knew that. I “know” nothing of the sort. Randians are ideological sociopaths. Arrogant, amoral and uncaring to the bone, and despising the rest of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/969 "2010-09-26T22:47:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > actually this isn’t true. But you knew that. > > I “know” nothing of the sort. Randians are ideological sociopaths. Arrogant, amoral and uncaring to the bone, and despising the rest of humanity. Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/970 "2010-09-26T22:51:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > actually this isn’t true. But you knew that. > > I “know” nothing of the sort. Randians are ideological sociopaths. Arrogant, amoral and uncaring to the bone, and despising the rest of humanity. Not necessarily true, though I can certainly see how you draw that conclusion. A Randian may choose to act altruistically, out of mercy, pity, or other reason that seems good to him/her. I was the recipient of a very kind gesture from a Randian. The operative word is ‘choose’ – they feel no obligation to the greater society. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/971 "2010-09-27T02:27:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I just don’t happen to share that belief. And that belief of yours imposes no actual obligation on me. I am perfectly free to do pro bono or not do pro bono. As it turns out, I have several reasons for not wanting to do it, so I don’t do it. Care to take time out from your busy posting schedule, on this board where no one agrees with you and everyone’s laughing at you, and share those “reasons for not wanting to” with us? > [@](#): > > Sill, the email itself illustrates that my firm recognizes that pro bono is not an actual obligation like getting enough continuing legal education hours. And yet they saw reason to send the e-mail as if it _did_ discuss an obligation, and was something actually worth the time to compose. Amazing. Some kind of lawyers \*they \*are, huh? Must really chap your ass knowing you’re better than any and all of them, and yet they’re the ones in charge anyway. You have accomplished something here, at least. You got **Bricker** to accuse _someone else_ of weaseling. That had heretofore been inconceivable. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/972 "2010-09-27T02:41:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > I just don’t happen to share that belief. And that belief of yours imposes no actual obligation on me. I am perfectly free to do pro bono or not do pro bono. As it turns out, I have several reasons for not wanting to do it, so I don’t do it. > > Care to take time out from your busy posting schedule, on this board where no one agrees with you and everyone’s laughing at you, and share those “reasons for not wanting to” with us? 1. I worked hard to develop expertise in an area, and I really enjoy having that expertise–I don’t relish the idea of doing something in a different area (thus being a first-year again essentially). 2. Many pro bono “opportunities” involve doing clinics and the like on weekends. I don’t want to give up a weekend (or any part of one) for that. 3. I believe there is a very small chance of danger to me or my family from running across a crazy person. 4. I typically work with really smart people. I like that. I don’t want to do stuff where I’m almost by definition working with very not-smart people (I like to restrict my access to such people to internet messageboards). 5. I don’t want to deal with people that will bother me outside of my representation because now they think I’m their personal law-talkin’ guy. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Sill, the email itself illustrates that my firm recognizes that pro bono is not an actual obligation like getting enough continuing legal education hours. > > And yet they saw reason to send the e-mail as if it _did_ discuss an obligation, and was something actually worth the time to compose. Amazing. What? The email said the firm has a goal of all lawyers doing pro bono–if lawyers had an actual obligation to do pro bono, the email wouldn’t say that. It would just say “have you done your pro bono for the year?” or the like. > [@](#): > > Some kind of lawyers \*they \*are, huh? Must really chap your ass knowing you’re better than any and all of them, and yet they’re the ones in charge anyway. You’re an idiot. > [@](#): > > You have accomplished something here, at least. You got **Bricker** to accuse _someone else_ of weaseling. That had heretofore been inconceivable. My exchanges with Bricker were the only parts of this worthless thread that were valuable to me (besides just the venting aspect, which is the reason I started it). But I fought lots of ignorance (including yours, in all its bounty), so onward and upward. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/973 "2010-09-27T03:03:11Z")
5 reasons, 3 of which are versions of “I just don’t fucking feel like it”, 1 of which is “I don’t want to do any more than the minimum even if I did”, and 1 of which is imagined. Wonderful. :rolleyes: You keep claiming you’ve “won” some sort of discussion here. Who else but you thinks so, either here or in the outside world? Anybody at all you can point to? If not, what would that imply? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/974 "2010-09-27T03:23:39Z")
I for one am shocked\* that you would quibble with my reasons. I was NOT expecting that. \* . . . SHOCKED Also, several people in this thread have said that a lawyer doesn’t have an actual obligation to perform pro bono. However, that doesn’t really mean anything. The burden is on a person arguing that a lawyer has an actual obligation to demonstrate that–no one in this thread has carried that burden. Would you care to try? The fact that you haven’t tried yet says something about your estimation of your ability to do so (and I think you’re right). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/975 "2010-09-27T04:12:37Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > I “know” nothing of the sort. Randians are ideological sociopaths. Arrogant, amoral and uncaring to the bone, and despising the rest of humanity. > > Not necessarily true, though I can certainly see how you draw that conclusion. A Randian may choose to act altruistically, out of mercy, pity, or other reason that seems good to him/her. I was the recipient of a very kind gesture from a Randian. The operative word is ‘choose’ – they feel no obligation to the greater society. I thought altruism was anathema to Randians. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/976 "2010-09-27T04:27:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I think lots of people still have no clue what I’ve been saying in this thread. I think I understand exactly what you are saying and I think its fucking sad that you will try to wordsmith your way out of your responsibilities. > [@](#): > > The initial thing that pissed me off about that email\* was the passive-aggressive United Way BS coercion about it–everyone has a frowny face until they get a happy face. Thats not how your OP reads. Kambuckta brings up the UInited Way analogy in this post [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12893663&postcount=57](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12893663&postcount=57) A few posts later another poster points out that its nothing at all like the United Way because pro-bono is expected from lawyers as a part of their professional responsibility. > [@](#): > > Then, after starting this thread, several posters argued that I have an actual obligation as a lawyer to perform pro bono, and/or that I promised to perform pro bono by becoming a lawyer, both of which I showed to be completely false. You showed nothing of the sort. You showed (and noone disagreed) that there is no penalty for not fulfilling your pro bono obligation. Several people have shown that you have a responsiblity to perform pro bono, you just won’t take it seriously because it doesn’t come with a penalty. > [@](#): > > If you believe that a lawyer has a moral obligation or an ethical obligation to do pro bono (i.e., not an actual obligation in the real world, just some “obligation” imposed by some cosmic sense of right and wrong), then that is totally fine. I’m not arguing with you. I’m fine with you believing that. That moral obligation is an obligation. Not in the sense that a mortgage is an obligation but its an obligation nonetheless. > [@](#): > > You are perfectly free to think I’m a bad person for not doing pro bono or wanting to do pro bono. I don’t think this is the straw that broke the camel’s back for most people. > [@](#): > > However, for those of you that are so jazzed on everyone having “access”\*\* to the justice system and that have gotten on my ass in this thread for not doing pro bono, have you given a single dollar to a legal aid organization? Yeah, tens of thousands of dollars. I don’t do it because I care about access, I do it because it part of my professional responsibility. > [@](#): > > Or is bitching out a lawyer who told you he doesn’t do pro bono the sum total of your contributions to increasing access to the justice system? We’re not bitching you out for not doing it or not wanting to do it. We’re bitching you out for whining about being reminded of your responsibility and then splitting hairs between the words obligation and responsibility in an effort to prove that your professional responsibility is in fact not your responsibility at all. This is compounded by your assertions that you have proven that you are right when it is crystal clear to the rest of the world that you are not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/977 "2010-09-27T04:44:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 1. I worked hard to develop expertise in an area, and I really enjoy having that expertise–I don’t relish the idea of doing something in a different area (thus being a first-year again essentially). You sound like an associate who is still trying to prove he’s good at something. > [@](#): > > 1. Many pro bono “opportunities” involve doing clinics and the like on weekends. I don’t want to give up a weekend (or any part of one) for that. > > 2. I believe there is a very small chance of danger to me or my family from running across a crazy person. > > 3. I typically work with really smart people. I like that. I don’t want to do stuff where I’m almost by definition working with very not-smart people (I like to restrict my access to such people to internet messageboards). > > 4. I don’t want to deal with people that will bother me outside of my representation because now they think I’m their personal law-talkin’ guy. You must have the worst pro bono coordinator in biglaw. The most mundane pro bono work I have seen are political asylum cases. As a tax lawyer, most of what I do is stuff for non-profits, I don’t defend purse snatchers or drug addicts. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/978 "2010-09-27T11:25:43Z")
**Randy** , the only thing you’ve proven here is that you cannot understand what a professional responsibility is. Maybe Daddy can explain it to you if you ask nicely. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/979 "2010-09-27T11:58:50Z")
And you’re going to get back to us with the list of people who think you’ve “won” this or any similar discussion, or any part of it, right? Must be a long one if it’s taking you so much time. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/980 "2010-09-27T11:59:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As a tax lawyer, most of what I do is stuff for non-profits, I don’t defend purse snatchers or drug addicts. In Libertopia, they are all the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=50)