# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1061 "2010-09-29T02:58:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > > Is that right? Please name any other profession where people believe the professional is morally obligated to provide free labor to poor people. Thanking you in advance. Um, medicine? A doctor encountering a person in danger of life or limb is expected to take such actions as are necessary to ensure survival and any preventable permanent damage without thought of ability to pay, collecting for his services afterwards if such is possible but not expecting it always to be possible. Building trades? There’s a long history of volunteerism in times of natural disaster. Religion? Clergy are expected to provide spiritual care to persons needing or wanting it without regard to whether it will garner them additional income. While there may be some strong views on the efficacy of such spiritual care around these parts, acting within the presumption that such care is efficacious, it is their obligation to provide it. Banking? Until recently it was the custom of most banks to cash official checks on proof of identity, there being no benefit to the bank from this public service. Police? “A policeman is never off duty.” If he sees a crime or dangerous situation in process, he is to act, even if not at present on the payroll. These are civic responsibilities willingly shouldered by adult human beings with a degree of empathy towards their fellow man with whom thy share a society. It is unfortunate that your ethical deficiencies keep you from seeing your own professional responsibilities as being on all fours with these. Most lawyers do, in my experience. Unfortunately, as you note, the sovereign State of Illinois has not seen fit to penalize the sociopaths and shirkers among those whom it admits to the bar – something I believe you have sufficiently brought to public attention that it should soon be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1062 "2010-09-29T03:02:41Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Is that right? Please name any other profession where people believe the professional is morally obligated to provide free labor to poor people. Thanking you in advance. > > Um, medicine? A doctor encountering a person in danger of life or limb is expected to take such actions as are necessary to ensure survival and any preventable permanent damage without thought of ability to pay, collecting for his services afterwards if such is possible but not expecting it always to be possible. > > Building trades? There’s a long history of volunteerism in times of natural disaster. > > Religion? Clergy are expected to provide spiritual care to persons needing or wanting it without regard to whether it will garner them additional income. While there may be some strong views on the efficacy of such spiritual care around these parts, acting within the presumption that such care is efficacious, it is their obligation to provide it. > > Banking? Until recently it was the custom of most banks to cash official checks on proof of identity, there being no benefit to the bank from this public service. > > Police? “A policeman is never off duty.” If he sees a crime or dangerous situation in process, he is to act, even if not at present on the payroll. > > These are civic responsibilities willingly shouldered by adult human beings with a degree of empathy towards their fellow man with whom thy share a society. It is unfortunate that your ethical deficiencies keep you from seeing your own professional responsibilities as being on all fours with these. Most lawyers do, in my experience. > > Unfortunately, as you note, the sovereign State of Illinois has not seen fit to penalize the sociopaths and shirkers among those whom it admits to the bar – something I believe you have sufficiently brought to public attention that it should soon be corrected. None of our examples are like the “moral obligation” for a lawyer to do pro bono–i.e., an obligation to perform free services for poor people. Two of them are only about helping in emergency situations. No one here would ask a construction worker if they fulfilled their duty this year to build something for a poor person. The clergy and bank examples are just weird. Also, if the burden is “willingly shouldered,” then there’s nothing to talk about. We are talking about you people saying I have some “moral obligation” to do something I don’t want to do. I don’t see anyone saying that any other profession has a moral obligation to do the same thing. Finally, it’s kinda cute how you think this thread may cause a state to actually require pro bono. ---
**Author:** ![HowardRoark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6a8cbe/32.png) [@HowardRoark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowardRoark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1063 "2010-09-29T03:05:32Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@HowardRoark](#): > > > > I’m truly sorry your a brain dead moronic fuckwad, but there is nothing short of a self-respect transplant that will fix that. > > Honestly, if you’re going to insult intelligence, you best not let anything hurt your own credibility. Dumbass. First of all I think honesty and credibility is well beyond you, and I’m just giving you back some of your own medicine since you started with the name calling and cursing instead of wanting to talk about the issue. But as you and a mod said, this is the pit, so I’m just trying to do what’s expected here. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1064 "2010-09-29T03:11:28Z")
I am deeply proud of the SDMB because, apparently, no one took the name HowardRoark until September 2010. Good job, guys. ---
**Author:** ![HowardRoark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6a8cbe/32.png) [@HowardRoark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowardRoark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1065 "2010-09-29T03:12:04Z")
RR, sorry for getting off topic in your thread. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1066 "2010-09-29T03:15:58Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > > Is that right? Please name any other profession where people believe the professional is morally obligated to provide free labor to poor people. Thanking you in advance. Others have provided examples of situations where free labor is required to poor people. But actually you missed my point (which is ok: I wasn’t clear). One of our societal norms is, “Professionalism”: retail clerks are generally speaking suppose to be polite (except in certain venues such as record stores). Doctors and clergy are suppose to keep their consultations private. All that is to say that the specifics of Professionalism vary among the occupations. The societal norm is that professionals should abide by whatever formal and informal codes apply. To do otherwise is provoke censor or worse. In the law, an aspect of professional is an aspiration to do _pro bono_ work. You are shirking that: such behavior is unprofessional. You might not have such an obligation in another profession: you would have different ones. My take is that fulfilling your obligations is part of being a man. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1067 "2010-09-29T03:16:20Z")
Wait, wait. This is just too rich. Admittedly, I stopped paying attention to this thread a while ago, because it is stupid, but now there’s some angry guy named **HowardRoark** here? Randy, is that your sock? You can tell me if it is. You can trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1068 "2010-09-29T03:18:11Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Wait, wait. This is just too rich. Admittedly, I stopped paying attention to this thread a while ago, because it is stupid, but now there’s some angry guy named **HowardRoark** here? Randy, is that your sock? You can tell me if it is. You can trust me. Shhh. He thinks he is being clever. Here comes the part where he falls through the ceiling. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1069 "2010-09-29T03:22:54Z")
> [@HowardRoark](#): > > > [@Bosstone](#): > > > > Honestly, if you’re going to insult intelligence, you best not let anything hurt your own credibility. Dumbass. > > But as you and a mod said, this is the pit, so I’m just trying to do what’s expected here. (Just in case I wasn’t clear, HR: I’m not a mod.) ---
**Author:** ![HowardRoark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6a8cbe/32.png) [@HowardRoark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowardRoark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1070 "2010-09-29T03:23:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > > > Wait, wait. This is just too rich. Admittedly, I stopped paying attention to this thread a while ago, because it is stupid, but now there’s some angry guy named **HowardRoark** here? Randy, is that your sock? You can tell me if it is. You can trust me. > > Shhh. He thinks he is being clever. Here comes the part where he falls through the ceiling. Sorry, no, just a fan of the fountainhead and Ayn Rand’s way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1071 "2010-09-29T03:24:25Z")
Oh, Howard… weren’t you supposed to open with a laugh? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1072 "2010-09-29T03:24:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You don’t even understand the meaning of “drive-by poster.” > > If you have a point to make, please make it. I would have thought that these little drive-by BS comments would be beyond you (that’s more EL and FI’s style), but I guess not. **Rand,** you’re really not worth more than passing comments. Engaging you in any extended discussion is utterly pointless and a waste of time. I would have thought someone who purports to be a smart, wealthy attorney would have something more entertaining to do than engaging in interminable inane arguments (226 posts now!) with people who despise you (and who you in turn evidently despise), but I guess not.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1073 "2010-09-29T03:58:17Z")
I take it that the content of this thread explains why you do not go by the name **Rand Rover, Esquire**? Look Bub. I don’t want your money. I don’t want your free time. I won’t force you to do anything. But are you specifically in the business of exploiting the poor and the weak? Does pro bono work cause you some kind of conflict of interest? If so, cop to it. If not, you really ought to recognize that your privileged position obligates you some kind of social service. Maybe you are just playing some lawyer game for our entertainment here on the SDMB. If you are serious, your position is that you will not perform pro bono work until some authority holds a gun to your head to coerce you into doing so. However, once coerced, it isn’t really pro bono anymore, no? Pro bono is necessarily freely given. And you know that. You’re full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1074 "2010-09-29T04:04:14Z")
> [@HowardRoark](#): > > > [@Bosstone](#): > > > > Honestly, if you’re going to insult intelligence, you best not let anything hurt your own credibility. Dumbass. > > First of all I think honesty and credibility is well beyond you, and I’m just giving you back some of your own medicine since you started with the name calling and cursing instead of wanting to talk about the issue. But as you and a mod said, this is the pit, so I’m just trying to do what’s expected here. If you haven’t noticed (and why would you? The only thing your head’s apparently useful for is a hat rack), this thread is 1000+ posts long. I, we, have already talked the issue to death. It’s not my problem my cat’s litterbox is smarter than you, but you do make an entertaining diversion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1075 "2010-09-29T04:52:20Z")
On the other hand, it appears that our outreach program to Objectivists has shown results, though it may prove to be more community service than most of us are ready for. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1076 "2010-09-29T04:56:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > > Is that right? Please name any other profession where people believe the professional is morally obligated to provide free labor to poor people. Thanking you in advance. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Polycarp](#): > > > > Religion? Clergy are expected to provide spiritual care to persons needing or wanting it without regard to whether it will garner them additional income. > > The clergy . . . examples are just weird. But the fact remains that charity is integral to clergy, where provision of free labour to poor people is expected and is the norm, ranging from ministering to the sick, to assisting the elderly, to conducting church services, to . . . ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1077 "2010-09-29T04:57:48Z")
Howard the Duck was more entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1078 "2010-09-29T05:16:30Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Howard the Duck was more entertaining. And he didn’t even rape Beverly. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1079 "2010-09-29T13:28:52Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Wait, wait. This is just too rich. Admittedly, I stopped paying attention to this thread a while ago, because it is stupid, but now there’s some angry guy named **HowardRoark** here? Randy, is that your sock? You can tell me if it is. You can trust me. What kind of weak-ass ventriloquist act is it where the performer and his puppet are in total agreement? I wanna see more “You’re a dummy!” “Don’t call \*me \*dummy, dummy!” “I’m not a dummy, _you’re_ the dummy!” Et cetera. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1080 "2010-09-29T14:36:45Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > SFG, I think you would understand what I’m saying if you would look at the difference between what I’m calling an “actual obligation” and a “moral/ethical obligation.” Rand, I think your IQ would go up about fifty points if you’re realize that what you’re calling an “actual obligation” is a \*requirement \*and what you’re calling a “moral/ethical obligation” is an _actual obligation_. > [@](#): > > So, I would say that you would say that he has no actual obligation to tip but has a moral obligation to do so. That’s because you’re a fucking retard. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I very simply recognize that other people’s opinions of what I have a moral responsibility to do means absolutel jack shit. Obligations and responsibilities are generally determined externally. If there are no norms, mores, or guidelines establishing that you should follow a given course of action, then it is not an obligation nor a responsibility, but rather a personal preference. Let’s look at [the definition](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obligation) again: > [@](#): > > 1: the action of obligating oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow) > 2a : something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates one to a course of action b : a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond) c : a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money; also : an amount owed under such an obligation \ > 3a : a condition or feeling of being obligated b : a debt of gratitude > 4: something one is bound to do : duty, responsibility > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, I don’t think any of this shows that I have failed to internalize society’s norms for right and wrong. When every other lawyer in this thread and 99.9% of the laypeople, short of someone who just created an account on this site and may be a sock (though I doubt yours), are telling you that your viewpoint of your responsibilities is wrong, I’m pretty sure that’s \*the very definition \*of not having internalized society’s norms. > [@HowardRoark](#): > > I read so many bigoted posts by people proclaiming tolerance, but only when it fit their own views. And if it can’t, motive quickly trumps fact, and the personal attacks follow. You’re a fucking retard. Get the hell off my forum. > [@HowardRoark](#): > > Doctors, but we are on our way with Obamacare into forcing them to give up practice. Yes, like those wastelands without any health care known as Canada, the U.K., Finland, and Australia. Moving to a system of health care supported by the government sure did drive all of the doctors out of those countries. Everyone is dying. The countries will not exist in another 10 years. Oh, wait, I forgot–you’re a fucking retard. Get the hell off my forum. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Unfortunately, as you note, the sovereign State of Illinois has not seen fit to penalize the sociopaths and shirkers among those whom it admits to the bar – something I believe you have sufficiently brought to public attention that it should soon be corrected. Never going to happen. The rules themselves specify that they haven’t included any sanctions specifically because of the complexity of the issue. And then clarified that the lack of sanctions shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning that you don’t still have a responsibility to do so. Which \*\*Rand \*\*keeps conveniently forgetting or deliberately interpreting to mean the exact opposite because he claims they had to write the opposite of what they meant. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > However, once coerced, it isn’t really pro bono anymore, no? Pro bono is necessarily freely given. Is it? I don’t think so. Volunteer work is necessarily freely given. But there’s nothing about pro bono representation that says it’s volunteer–it’s simply work done “for the public good” versus for direct monetary compensation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=55)