# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1141 "2010-10-01T01:27:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > M–we can’t all be a self-made billionaire entrepeneur/international playboy like you apparently are. God you’re so cool. From everything I’ve read on this board about **Muffin** ’s lawyerly activities, and your lawyerly activities, he’s at least 100 times as valuable to his society as you are to yours. One can only wish that lawyers were so compensated. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1142 "2010-10-01T01:50:01Z")
OK, Frank. You can think that if you want, it doesn’t bother me or contradict anything I’ve said. I’ve talked only about the actual value of the services I provide (as measured by the amount people are willing to pay), not any kind of nebulous concept of moral/social value or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1143 "2010-10-01T01:51:49Z")
SFG, how do you feel about the people in this thread (several of whom are lawyers) who say that the rules do not impose an actual obligation on lawyers to do pro bono? If that’s all you are saying, then it must hurt to see other people who are subject to those rules agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1144 "2010-10-01T02:10:56Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > From everything I’ve read on this board about **Muffin** ’s lawyerly activities, and your lawyerly activities, he’s at least 100 times as valuable to his society as you are to yours. One can only wish that lawyers were so compensated. That RR has no value at all to society and a high value to himself is, if I am not mistaken, his whole reason to exist. Doing something for the benefit of others would be like Sauron setting up a day care center for orclings. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1145 "2010-10-01T02:14:17Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > > [@Frank](#): > > > > From everything I’ve read on this board about **Muffin** ’s lawyerly activities, and your lawyerly activities, he’s at least 100 times as valuable to his society as you are to yours. One can only wish that lawyers were so compensated. > > That RR has no value at all to society and a high value to himself is, if I am not mistaken, his whole reason to exist. \*\*Doing something for the benefit of others \*\*would be like Sauron setting up a day care center for orclings. What do you think I do for 60 hours a week? Do stuff that’s not for the benefit of others? So people pay me well over a million bucks a year to do stuff that’s not to their benefit? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1146 "2010-10-01T02:27:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > > > That RR has no value at all to society and a high value to himself is, if I am not mistaken, his whole reason to exist. \*\*Doing something for the benefit of others \*\*would be like Sauron setting up a day care center for orclings. > > What do you think I do for 60 hours a week? Do stuff that’s not for the benefit of others? So people pay me well over a million bucks a year to do stuff that’s not to their benefit? If you think that’s a hair worth splitting with the Bricker method, be my guest. Assuming that you don’t help non-profits with their taxes (and for all I know, you may do that) helping rich people and corporations pay less taxes may have value to you and to them and you and they may even entertain a sincere belief that it helps society overall, but it is of negative value to me and many other people. Particularly if you are really good at what you do. Tax was my best subject in law school, and if I held your same values I too would undoubtedly be a rich tax lawyer. But being the liberal douche that I am, I consider tax work to be a waste of one’s life in service of Mammon. I help people who are being sued and are greatly traumatized and lost in an utterly amoral system that will destroy them financially without my help. The rich and powerful need representation too. That’s why God put guys like you on this earth. But if my epitaph were going to say: “he was the best tax lawyer in the Mid-West”, I’d blow my brains all over the wall now. What floats my boat is guiding small timers through the civil litigation wringer. And yes, I can see how most lawyers would be utterly appalled at the prospect of a life like that. And I frequently do it for free. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1147 "2010-10-01T02:30:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > people pay me well over a million bucks a year Oh, no–look out! He’s going to hit you with his wallet!! Rich sociopathic selfish fucks pay a rich sociopathic selfish fuck to help them avoid paying their fair share (or any share) of the costs of keeping our society functioning, and the fact that money changes hands in this evil transaction is supposed to impress me how? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1148 "2010-10-01T02:37:42Z")
I’ll guide you numbnuts to discover what I do for a living. First question: In broad terms, what do people try to do before they buy a business, start a new business, form an investment fund, invest in an investment fund, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1149 "2010-10-01T02:41:19Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And when you realuze thst you can’t take what you want (because nothing you say will get me or any other lawyer to do pro bono if they don’t want to), you lash out **like a caged animal**. Witness Obama’s demonizing of Boehner and anyone who’s got more than twenty bucks in their checking account. > > So, keep lashing out. It amuses me. OMG. From page 208 of A People’s History of the United States: > [@](#): > > ``` > In the postwar literature, images of the Negro came mostly from souther white writers like Thomas Nelson Page, who in his novel *Red Rock* referred to a Negro character as " **a hyena in a cage** ," "a reptile," "a species of worm," "a wild beast." > > ``` All bolding mine. Please don’t dig this kind of stuff up, after everything else :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1150 "2010-10-01T02:44:41Z")
Huh? Seems to me like YOU are the one digging that up, bub. Maybe put the bong down for a minute or two. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1151 "2010-10-01T02:53:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ll guide you numbnuts to discover what I do for a living. > > First question: In broad terms, what do people try to do before they buy a business, start a new business, form an investment fund, invest in an investment fund, etc.? [crickets chirping] ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1152 "2010-10-01T02:58:15Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > However, once coerced, it isn’t really pro bono anymore, no? Pro bono is necessarily freely given. > > Is it? I don’t think so. Volunteer work is necessarily freely given. But there’s nothing about pro bono representation that says it’s volunteer–it’s simply work done “for the public good” versus for direct monetary compensation. Hmmm. A distinction between ‘for the public good’ and ‘volunteer work’, where the difference is holding a gun to a lawyer’s head to coerce him into pro bono… I am going to hold out and maintain that it isn’t in the public’s interest to hold guns to lawyers’ heads to coerce representation out of them, as it is likely to bring about the opposite of the intended result. That is, not pro bono at all. Plus, ‘pro bono’ is presented as an expected aspiration on the part of an individual lawyer. The motivation is intended to be internal; coercion transforms it into something else. I disagree. But I don’t have any insults to accompany that, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1153 "2010-10-01T03:00:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Huh? Seems to me like YOU are the one digging that up, bub. Maybe put the bong down for a minute or two. No bong here, bub. You’re the one who feels coerced with violence by professional responsibilities while earning $1+ million a year. Please refrain from attaching references to caged animals to our black president. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1154 "2010-10-01T03:04:16Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Huh? Seems to me like YOU are the one digging that up, bub. Maybe put the bong down for a minute or two. > > No bong here, bub. You’re the one who feels coerced with violence by professional responsibilities while earning $1+ million a year. Please refrain from attaching references to caged animals to our black president. You are a crazy person. Maybe try picking the bong up for a bit, may help. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1155 "2010-10-01T04:36:22Z")
If you want to share a bong and talk it over, I’ll think about it. You casting accusations of crazy 1100+ posts into this slog of a thread is a little… crazy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1156 "2010-10-01T05:13:25Z")
“No, **Randy** , you don’t get it. You take a hit , you pass it to the next guy. You don’t keep it. No, if you don’t, there won’t be any _consequences_, but then you’re a total…oh. Never mind.” ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1157 "2010-10-01T05:34:24Z")
**’luci** , if you want to share a bong and talk this over, that is ok too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1158 "2010-10-01T05:43:43Z")
> [@](#): > > In broad terms, what do people try to do before they buy a business, start a new business, form an investment fund, invest in an investment fund, etc.? They… try to be comprehensive? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1159 "2010-10-01T06:00:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ll guide you numbnuts to discover what I do for a living. > > First question: In broad terms, what do people try to do before they buy a business, start a new business, form an investment fund, invest in an investment fund, etc.? Win Lotto or inherit a shitload of money from a relative? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1160 "2010-10-01T08:48:46Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What do you think I do for 60 hours a week? Do stuff that’s not for the benefit of others? So people pay me well over a million bucks a year to do stuff that’s not to their benefit? Try being honest for once in your life, RR. Fact: people do not pay you well over a million bucks per year – not even close. Fact: clients pay your firm well over a million bucks per year for work done by you. You are paid far, far less by your firm – the same firm that has committed itself and its partners/employees to pro bono service. Honesty, RR, is not just for kids. It is something you should try someday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=59)