# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1241 "2010-10-05T21:28:08Z")
And even then, BASIC’s GOTO is homage to FORTRAN’s GOTO. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1242 "2010-10-05T21:32:19Z")
Dad ranted to me once about GOTO. He said it spoiled programming and let everybody just take the lazy way out. I never got him to really coherently explain what he thought people should use instead, though. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1243 "2010-10-05T21:48:39Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Dad ranted to me once about GOTO. He said it spoiled programming and let everybody just take the lazy way out. I never got him to really coherently explain what he thought people should use instead, though. Just a guess – if you wanted to hide some bad or unfinished code, stick a GOTO at the end of it so that whether the code works or not, the result is the same, for either way, you end up where the GOTO sends you. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1244 "2010-10-05T21:50:42Z")
Personally, I don’t think Rand is a sociopath because he doesn’t do pro bono or give enough to charity. I think he’s a sociopath because he really cant comprehend why he should. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1245 "2010-10-05T21:57:04Z")
Or perhaps GOTO’s propensity to cause infinite loops – sort of like RR’s thought process. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1246 "2010-10-05T23:02:23Z")
I’ve started a “GOTO lazy programming?” thread. It won’t do anything to help RR with his problem, but I’m curious to see how the GOTO fell from grace: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12992828#post12992828](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12992828#post12992828) ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1247 "2010-10-05T23:11:41Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Dad ranted to me once about GOTO. He said it spoiled programming and let everybody just take the lazy way out. I never got him to really coherently explain what he thought people should use instead, though. [sidetrack]Probably because it encourages “spaghetti”-code. Or, to put it in understandable terms, because the continued use of GOTO results in illegible programs (any code might end up at any other point, playing with variables, etc.) [/sidetrack] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1248 "2010-10-05T23:45:08Z")
The brute strength of the machine has made the autistic elegance of the true programmer redundant, pointless. Back in the day, they prided themselves on squeezing every last drop of machine power from lean sources. Now, really, who cares? An elegant program runs in microseconds, the spaghetti lump of kluge runs in the blink of an eye. So what? You know its sloppy, your co-worker knows its sloppy, maybe even your boss knows its sloppy. But the guy who writes the checks doesn’t know shit and can’t tell the difference, so everybody’s happy, and can go out and buy new shoes to stare at. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1249 "2010-10-06T00:40:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > SFG–OK, so wekve narrowed down the issue. You believe I have an actual obligation (my term) to do pro bono work. As I’ve demonstrated above, that’s simply not the case. I agred to uphold the rules, and the rules don’t require pro bono. The preamble to the rules just says that lawyers have a responsibility to do pro bono; however, since the rules don’t require it (and even explicitly state that they don’t require it), the rules don’t actually impose that responsibility. Therefore, the preamble is clearly referring to only a “moral responsibility” that’s out floating in the ether. So, if I don’t do pro bono, I’m not failing to fulfill a promise I made or failing to uphold rules that govern me. I’m just failing to do something that the preamble to some rules say I have a responsibility to do. > > Here we go again–you keep insisting that you only have a responsibility or an obligation if something is a requirement, and that’s just not the case. That is not the meaning of the words. Obligations and responsibities **ARE NOT REQUIREMENTS** , or they’d be \*called \*requirements. > > Loving your daughter is a responsibility, not a requirement; you won’t be thrown into jail for not doing it. But I’m sure you’re not going to post in the Pit five years from now whining about how everyone’s expecting you to not treat her like shit and you don’t understand why they have this expectation of you. And, everyone, this is the reason I keep repeating myself–SFG (and others) don’t read what I write and simply follow their line of argument back around in a circle without actually understanding what’s going on. SFG, I thought we narrowed down the issue. You said I promised to do pro bono. I showed how I didn’t promise to do pro bono because (i) all I promised to do was abide by the rules and (ii) one may abide by the rules without doing pro bono. There, I stated it all without using the word “requirement.” Does that make you happy? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1250 "2010-10-06T00:50:15Z")
The rules also say that lawyers are supposed to aspire to do Pro Bono work; yet you clearly don’t aspire to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1251 "2010-10-06T01:09:57Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The rules also say that lawyers are supposed to aspire to do Pro Bono work; yet you clearly don’t aspire to do so. Nope. The Illinois rules very simply do not say that. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1252 "2010-10-06T02:46:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > The rules also say that lawyers are supposed to aspire to do Pro Bono work; yet you clearly don’t aspire to do so. > > Nope. The Illinois rules very simply do not say that. Yes, they very clearly do. You just keep pretending they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1253 "2010-10-06T02:59:08Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Nope. The Illinois rules very simply do not say that. > > Yes, they very clearly do. You just keep pretending they don’t. The Model Rules say that a lawyer “should aspire” to do pro bono work. The Illinois rules don’t say a word about pro bono. The preamble to the Illinois rules say that a lawyer “has a responsibility” to do pro bono. So, the Illinois rules do not say that a lawyer should aspire to do pro bono. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1254 "2010-10-06T03:03:33Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > Yes, they very clearly do. You just keep pretending they don’t. > > The Model Rules say that a lawyer “should aspire” to do pro bono work. The Illinois rules don’t say a word about pro bono. The preamble to the Illinois rules say that a lawyer “has a responsibility” to do pro bono. So, the Illinois rules do not say that a lawyer should aspire to do pro bono. So you admit to being irresponsible then? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1255 "2010-10-06T03:12:34Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > The Model Rules say that a lawyer “should aspire” to do pro bono work. The Illinois rules don’t say a word about pro bono. The preamble to the Illinois rules say that a lawyer “has a responsibility” to do pro bono. So, the Illinois rules do not say that a lawyer should aspire to do pro bono. > > So you admit to being irresponsible then? Back on page 439 I admitted to failing to do something that the preamble to the rules say I have a responsibility to do. So there (nyah). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1256 "2010-10-06T03:19:50Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Colibri–thanks for more non sequiturs that don’t add anything to the discussion. Non sequitur? Look, Humpty, I’m surprised that you’d pretend to be too dumb to understand how the quote relates to your posts, but suit yourself. And “discussion” seems to be another word you define differently from everyone else. This is more like Monty Python’s Argument Clinic. (Sorry, let me translate that to Dumptyese. I meant Glory Clinic.) > [@](#): > > You’re really racking up the points in that category. Glad you’re keeping score.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1257 "2010-10-06T15:22:51Z")
Colibri, I think it’s fairly apparent that others are the ones getting hung up on the meanings of words (SFG especially). I’ve explained very clearly what I mean by the terms I use. Others have just come tromping in with “you have an obligation! It’s not a requirement,sure, but it’s still an obligation!” as if that means anything. You take my multiple attempts at pain-staking clarity as the exact opposite. I’m not sure what you think you’ve won by doing that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1258 "2010-10-06T15:32:03Z")
Yes, in Randyland, words can mean whatever \*\*Randy \*\*finds convenient. And this solipsist claims to actually be a college graduate. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1259 "2010-10-06T15:58:22Z")
EL, insightful as always. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1260 "2010-10-06T16:38:10Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Just a guess – if you wanted to hide some bad or unfinished code, stick a GOTO at the end of it so that whether the code works or not, the result is the same, for either way, you end up where the GOTO sends you. Something along those lines. I think there might have been something about obsfuscation, too. > [@bdgr](#): > > I think he’s a sociopath because he really cant comprehend why he should. Exactly. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > SFG, I thought we narrowed down the issue. You said I promised to do pro bono. I showed how I didn’t promise to do pro bono because (i) all I promised to do was abide by the rules and (ii) one may abide by the rules without doing pro bono. But you haven’t done any of this. The rules clearly state that you have a responsibility to do pro bono. For you to say that you have no responsibility to do so because you have no requirement is therefore 100% wrong. Until you admit that you are \*failing \*to live up to that responsibility, you will continue to be wrong, wrong, wrong. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ve explained very clearly what I mean by the terms I use. By that logic, I should be able to claim that when \*I \*say you’re someone who rapes his daughter every night, I \*mean \*that you agreed to a responsibility and then reneged on it. And \*you \*shouldn’t be able to complain about it. Because I’ve \*explained very clearly \*what I mean! Now get your cock out of that sweet toddler’s crotch. She’s getting blood all over the teddy bear sheets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=64)