# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/121 "2010-09-09T17:09:59Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I do antitrust litigation. Generally not a big call for pro bono antitrust attorneys. But I am an attorney first, a litigator second, and an antitrust litigator third. There’s plenty of work out there that doesn’t need specific knowledge in the area; often all pro bono matters need is a letter with Esq. on the bottom to make the other person sit up and take notice. To my mind, it would be a better use of resources for me to give money and use that to fund a legal aid lawyer who actually works on cases that are highly suited to pro bono work. I do not see any particular magic in me, personally, performing this service, and it has the downside that I don’t have the specific expertise to do it as well as someone who does. In short, I agree fully with the notion behind pro bono work - that lawyers have duties towards the community at large. The particular form of the pro bono requirement made more sense in the past, when the vast majority of lawyers were generalists, and so donating their services in time was a practical way of performing community service. Now, requiring folks who have no particular expertise to personally perform community service seems awfully inefficient, if their expertise is geared towards skills that are not particularly useful. For example, it would benefit the community far more in practical terms to donate the equivalent of 20 billable hours in money, than in reasonably low-skilled work; because that money could be used to hire someone to do far moire than 20 hours of that work. > [@](#): > > That’s true, though again there are thousands of projects in every community that are very time discrete - the work I do with Holocaust survivors is a commitment of around 6 hours per client. And if a case goes further - well it is our ethical responsibility as lawyers to see it through, or, alternatively, to work with another attorney to have them take over the case. Working with holocaust survivors is the sort of project that I’d make an exception for, since it sounds inherently interesting. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/122 "2010-09-09T17:12:40Z")
**Malthus** - feel free to send me a message letting me know where you are and I can see if there is a reparations project set up there that you can get in touch with. It’s very simple - filling out forms from the German government to apply for pensions for “voluntary” work performed in ghettos rather than camps. And it is incredibly rewarding. The people I have met never fail to leave me completely speechless. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/123 "2010-09-09T17:15:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Christ MOL, you are quite the nuanced thinker Thank you! > [@](#): > > (that’s sarcasm) Aww. ☹ > [@](#): > > I don’t think ALL pro bono clients are dangerous losers. I just think that the risk of exposing myself to a dangerous loser outweighs the reward of getting a smiley next to my name. Jesus, Randy, I get that already. Maybe it would have helped if I hadn’t used the word “all”? You know, I’ve found that in general, when people use very broad terms like “all,” they seldom mean literally every, single, one. When I hear things like, “People in LA are all mean,” (which I’ve heard) I’ve never thought they were referring to each and every one of its 4 million residents, but maybe you’d interpret it that way. If you don’t care for matters of expression and would like me to type everything exactly, literally as I mean it, I will do so to make you happy. I’m a nice gal. So then you think it is a waste of time to offer pro bono assistance, because it necessarily means there is an incresed likelihood that client will be a miscreant with self-created problems, who will resort to violence if unsatisfied with your work, than would exist with a paying client. Is that a more or less accurate paraphrasing of [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12893077&postcount=20) and [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12894737&postcount=100)? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/124 "2010-09-09T17:15:53Z")
> [@villa](#): > > **Malthus** - feel free to send me a message letting me know where you are and I can see if there is a reparations project set up there that you can get in touch with. It’s very simple - filling out forms from the German government to apply for pensions for “voluntary” work performed in ghettos rather than camps. > > And it is incredibly rewarding. The people I have met never fail to leave me completely speechless. Will do. Check your inbox. Sounds interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/125 "2010-09-09T17:22:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > > > [Right here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12893077&postcount=20). I paraphrased a little, but I believe I got the gist of it. > > Nope. I didn’t say helping people is for losers. I said I didn’t want to put myself in a position of being a lawyer for the typical pro bono client. I’ve heard lots of stories of pro bono clients now considering a lawyer to be THEIR lawyer for all matters. And I wouldn’t want to expose my family to any risk if they don’t believe I did a good job and want to retaliate. Are you … are you _serious_? Retaliate? Good grief, man, what in the world do you think a typical pro bono client _is_? Sure, I could maybe see a client asking if you’d be willing to do some work outside the scope of your project - but that’s easily dealt with. And as for the fear that a client would pose a danger to your family - that’s absurd. Why in the world would you expect an old man whose will you drafted, or an immigration client whose deportation you’re fighting, or whatever, to come after you if you didn’t perform to their satisfaction? Would _you_ ever do such a thing? No? Then why the heck would you believe the “typical” pro bono client would? The folks who need pro bono lawyer often have a host of problems. Poverty, lack of education - sometimes even mental illness. But they’re people, man - and, just like the bulk of us, mainly reasonable folks. I’m amazed you hold people your Bar says you have an obligation to help in such naked contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/126 "2010-09-09T17:23:20Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > The biggest factor is that I don’t like how other people believe they have a claim on my labor simply because I’m a lawyer. > > Either you knew it was an ethical responsibility when you signed up, or you are stupid. > > If you knew, and had no intention of even attempting to fulfill it, that speaks loudly about your character (and fitness, I’d add). I’ve passed C and F reviews in two states, bub. You seem unclear on the definition of an “ethical responsibility.” ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/127 "2010-09-09T17:24:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So one of the senior partners in my section sent around an email today reminding everyone of the firm’s goal of having every lawyer work 20 pro bono hours each year. So just write back and explain that doing a tiny amount of pro bono work would cut too much into your “being a collosal prick” time. I’m sure they’ll understand. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/128 "2010-09-09T17:24:56Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > Either you knew it was an ethical responsibility when you signed up, or you are stupid. > > > > If you knew, and had no intention of even attempting to fulfill it, that speaks loudly about your character (and fitness, I’d add). > > I’ve passed C and F reviews in two states, bub. You seem unclear on the definition of an “ethical responsibility.” I am sure you have. I also am aware of what an ethical responsibility is. And anyone who voluntarily and knowingly undertakes one, with no intention of fulfilling it, is a pretty worthless human being in my opinion. But there are plenty of other reasons I consider you a pretty worthless human being, if that makes you sleep any better. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/129 "2010-09-09T17:30:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Mr. Excellent, your grasp of the definition of “requirement” is markedly unexcellent. And you aren’t doing so well with “obligation” and “should” and “aspirational” either. > > Maybe this will clarify things for you: what happens if a lawyer admitted in Maryland works only 10 pro bono hours? What about 0? It’s considered good form to read an entire post before responding to it. If you had, you might have noticed this bit: > [@](#): > > Now, you may point out that pro bono service isn’t a mandatory requirement - no one will punish me if I don’t meet the pro bono goals the Maryland bar has laid out. But, you know what? Because I’m an adult, “you can’t make me!” isn’t a sufficient reason for me to refrain from performing my duty. And it is my duty - when I was sworn in at the Maryland Court of Appeals, I promised to abide by all the Maryland Rules of Professional Responsibility. Not just the ones I couldn’t get away with violating, but every last one of them. And you know what? When you were sworn in to your jurisdiction, you made that very same promise. > > Now, the fact the rule is aspirational does mean something - if you simply can’t perform fifty hours of service (and note that most states do specify fifty hours), then so be it. I probably won’t make fifty hours this year myself. But to refuse to try - to object when someone asks you to try - that’s damn low, man. Sure, the pro bono requirement is aspirational in character. But we’re supposed to _aspire_ towards that - to try in good faith to meet our obligations. Not because we’ll be disciplined if we don’t, but because it’s the right thing to do. And yes, these _are_ obligations - the fact we aren’t punished if we fail to meet them doesn’t make them less important, it merely leaves enforcement to our consciences. Of course, I’ll concede that in some cases enforcement may be somewhat lax. Yours, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/130 "2010-09-09T17:33:14Z")
It’s not just that trying is the right thing to do. It’s that when we stood up and swore that oath when we joined the bar, we promised we would try. My word is pretty important to me. Clearly other people have lower values on their own integrity. And somehow I didn’t see you say pretty much the same thing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/131 "2010-09-09T17:35:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > Either you knew it was an ethical responsibility when you signed up, or you are stupid. > > > > If you knew, and had no intention of even attempting to fulfill it, that speaks loudly about your character (and fitness, I’d add). > > I’ve passed C and F reviews in two states, bub. You seem unclear on the definition of an “ethical responsibility.” What are “C and F reviews?” In California we have our own canons and aren’t disciplined if we do not do pro bono. However if we do pro bono and they will testify for us in an ethics case it will mitigate a non-disbarment sentence. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/132 "2010-09-09T17:47:38Z")
Character and Fitness - when you join the bar. It’s why I jokingly added (and fitness) when I was talkign about idiot boys deficient character. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/133 "2010-09-09T17:48:15Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It’s not just that trying is the right thing to do. It’s that when we stood up and swore that oath when we joined the bar, we promised we would try. that’s simply not true. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/134 "2010-09-09T17:55:35Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > It’s not just that trying is the right thing to do. It’s that when we stood up and swore that oath when we joined the bar, we promised we would try. > > that’s simply not true. Where are you admitted? This is the Maryland oath of admission: > [@](#): > > I do solemnly (swear) (affirm) that I will at all times demean myself fairly and honorably as an attorney and practitioner at law; that I will bear true allegiance to the State of Maryland, and support the laws and Constitution thereof, and that I will bear true allegiance to the United States, and that I will support, protect and defend the Constitution, laws and government thereof as the supreme law of the land; any law, or ordinance of this or any state to the contrary notwithstanding. Notice that first bit, about demeaning myself fairly and honorably as an attorney? The whole point of the state Rules of Professional Conduct is that they tell us what that phrase means, at least at a bare minimum. There’s more to honorable action than honoring the Professional Rules, of course - but it starts there, and I swore to follow those rules. So did you, unless your jurisdiction has a very very strange oath. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/135 "2010-09-09T17:58:05Z")
Yeah, _some_ people just mumbled “watermelon” over and over the whole time. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/136 "2010-09-09T17:58:32Z")
You are correct so far, Mr E. But you haven’t yet brought your case all the way home. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/137 "2010-09-09T17:58:39Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Character and Fitness - when you join the bar. It’s why I jokingly added (and fitness) when I was talkign about idiot boys deficient character. Incidentally, **villa** - while I agree with and applaud almost everything you’ve said in this thread (and have tremendous respect for your pro bono work), I’d object to calling **Rand Rover** an idiot. Idiots don’t choose their impairment - **Rand Rover** has. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/138 "2010-09-09T18:02:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You are correct so far, Mr E. But you haven’t yet brought your case all the way home. Okay, I’ll bite - wherein have I erred? The oath directs us to follow our state ethics rules (“demean ourselves honorably as an attorney”), the rules direct us to do pro bono work (or donate, in some jurisdictions). The pro bono rule isn’t backed by the threat of professional ruin - but the fact the rule calls on us to do this means that our _honor_ demands it, and we’ve sworn to act honorably. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/139 "2010-09-09T18:02:40Z")
Interesting debate breaking out. Are the ethics canons encouraging pro bono work of benefit to the community, or are they a mere sop to those who can’t afford legal representation? Does the government have a responsibility to ensure that representation is available for certain legal matters (aside from criminal cases, where the responsibility already exists)? Also, I’m not sure I would say that these pro bono “requirements” create any ethical responsibility, as I’m not aware of any penalty in any state for not fulfilling them (please correct me if I’m wrong). That’s why they’re best described as “aspirational.” Perhaps lawyers _ought_ to feel ethically bound to provide free legal counsel, and clearly states have an interest in encouraging them to feel that way, but it doesn’t follow that they _are_ ethically bound. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/140 "2010-09-09T18:02:55Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > ME is not the evaluation mark you’re supposed to want. Okay, but where are the droids you’re looking for? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=8)