# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1461 "2010-10-10T03:02:35Z")
Yet another self-inflicted Rand Rover ass-kicking. It’s kind of like watching the sideshow geek; just because he enjoys biting off chicken heads makes it no less entertaining to the audience. Smile **Randi** , show us those feathers in your teeth. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1462 "2010-10-10T03:09:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > _What_ is called duty? Actually, considering the title of this thread, what you have had smeared across your face for thirty pages now is bull-duty. Keep licking. We’ve got plenty more. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1463 "2010-10-10T03:16:40Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > And there you go again, confusing obligation with responsibility. Too bad you have poor skills at statutory interpretation. My guess is that you have never even drafted any statutes. If you had, you would understand how rules are interpreted in light of preambles, but as it stands, you still can’t tell the difference between the rules saying there is no obligation, and the preamble saying that there is a responsibility. They are different concepts. OK, so when you say it is part of my professional responsibility, what are you saying exactly? I understand that an actual obligation and a moral obligation are different concepts. Professional responsibility is a concept that spans both–some parts of one’s professional responsibility are laid out in rules while others aren’t. The rules clearly don’t require pro bono. So, by you saying that doing pro bono is part of professional responsibility, you are only saying that I have a moral obligation to do pro bono. As I’ve repeatedly said throughout this thread, you can say that if you want to, but it has no real-word impact on anything. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1464 "2010-10-10T03:24:12Z")
The rules do not provide a penalty for failing to perform pro bono, however, in light of the preamble, that lack of a formal requirement and formal penalty does not absolve one from meeting one’s responsibility to perform pro bono. You are confusing obligation with responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1465 "2010-10-10T08:50:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What exactly do you think the bar association would do if I “presented these same arguments” to them? Several things come to mind, the least of which is a Formal Letter advising you that you are required to at least _try_ and do Pro Bono, and if that’s not feasible to make a donation to one of the following from a list of approved charitable organisations. It’s only likely to get worse from there. > [@](#): > > I don’t do pro bono and I report to the bar that I haven’t done any pro bono. I’m not afraid of them finding out. My employer also is fully aware of the fact that I haven’t done any pro bono. There’s a difference between “Not doing Pro Bono because: I’m so busy dealing with our client workload; but I’ve donated to the Indigent Legal Defence Fund instead” and “Not doing Pro Bono because: Fuck you, Peasants!” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1466 "2010-10-10T13:15:05Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The rules do not provide a penalty for failing to perform pro bono, however, in light of the preamble, that lack of a formal requirement and formal penalty does not absolve one from meeting one’s responsibility to perform pro bono. You are confusing obligation with responsibility. I love how you guys say I’m the one not using words correctly and making up my own meanings of words. SFG says that I don’t have a requirement to do pro bono, but I do have an obligation. You say I don’t have an obligation, but I do have a responsibility. I’ve been cutting through all those words to get to the actual concepts. Throughout I’ve used the following two terms: (i) actual obligation, by which I mean an action that, were I to not perform it, someone would have recourse against me based on that nonperformance (either because a set of rules provides consequences for not engaging in that action or I promised to engage in it so could be held liable for breach of that promise), and (ii) moral obligation, by which I mean an action that someone else thinks I should do even though they would have no recourse against me if I don’t do it. Muffin, you seem to be saying that doing pro bono is a moral obligation. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1467 "2010-10-10T13:17:59Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > What exactly do you think the bar association would do if I “presented these same arguments” to them? > > Several things come to mind, the least of which is a Formal Letter advising you that you are required to at least _try_ and do Pro Bono, and if that’s not feasible to make a donation to one of the following from a list of approved charitable organisations. **It’s only likely to get worse from there.** What’s your support for that proposition? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1468 "2010-10-10T13:35:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > Several things come to mind, the least of which is a Formal Letter advising you that you are required to at least _try_ and do Pro Bono, and if that’s not feasible to make a donation to one of the following from a list of approved charitable organisations. **It’s only likely to get worse from there.** > > What’s your support for that proposition? Human nature and realpolitik, basically. What’s your support for the proposition that it won’t? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1469 "2010-10-10T15:05:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > What’s your support for that proposition? > > Human nature and realpolitik, basically. What’s your support for the proposition that it won’t? I haven’t asserted a proposition, so I have nothing to support. I can just sit back and point out that you haven’t adequately supported your proposition. The reason you haven’t supported it is that the rules don’t require pro bono, so it is absurd to think that the bar association would do anything about a lawyer who informs them that they don’t do pro bono. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1470 "2010-10-10T15:17:28Z")
Does the firm have an up or out policy? Have you (or your dad, whichever) passed a partnership review yet? If not, then do you really think a refusal to follow the firm’s decisionmakers’ clearly stated expectation of its candidate members will go unnoticed? Or do you expect them to be impressed by the keenness of a legal mind that thinks it can find a different true meaning? If so, good luck with that. :rolleyes: You say you would prefer to be told directly to do pro bono, by either the bar or the firm. You fail to recognize, though, that you HAVE been told that, and in phrasing whose politeness you mistake for nondirectness. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1471 "2010-10-10T15:24:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You say you would prefer to be told directly to do pro bono, by either the bar or the firm. You fail to recognize, though, that you HAVE been told that, and in phrasing whose politeness you mistake for nondirectness. Nope. Another massive fail from EL, to no one’s surprise. Here’s a hypo: Let’s say the shift manager at the fast food restaurant where you work told you that the restaurant had a goal of everyone spending 20 hours a year protesting legal abortion in front of an abortion clinic. Would you simply go get your protest time in and not say or think anything about it? If they just made it a requirement of working there, then you could make your decision about whether you wanted to work there or not. Instead of doing that, they use bullshit moral suasion techniques. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1472 "2010-10-10T15:32:56Z")
Nope. You mistake the politeness of the phrasing for nondirectness. As already said. Do you have alternative career plans? Are you ready to implement them? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1473 "2010-10-10T15:42:12Z")
Wow, score one for EL. I mean, you are really scaring me here. I never realized before that this issue could cause the firm to boot me out, in which case my family and I could become homeless and destitute. You’ve really opened my eyes, man. If you need me, I will be spending the rest of the day huddled in the corner crying. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1474 "2010-10-10T16:05:10Z")
If you’re so confident about not being booted out, why not show the senior partner this thread? You’ll only get a warm bath of love from him, right? As opposed to the warm bath of feces you’re getting from everyone here. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1475 "2010-10-10T17:30:14Z")
And the bar association, too. No doubt they’ll all be glad to learn that the definitions of “obligation” and “responsibility” imply “unless it would create even the slightest personal inconvenience”. They don’t seem to be aware of that, and no doubt would welcome having their ignorance fought. Why haven’t you done that yet? But I’m \*really \*worried about that poor little toddler girl having her ex-lawyer dad pimp out her sweet little ass to support his Kristall habit … ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1476 "2010-10-10T17:48:16Z")
He won’t get canned for not meeting his professional responsibility to provide pro bona services or something either similar or in lieu. Firms need technical grinders, so he’s found his niche. Will he get anywhere with his career other than grinding out long hours for a competitive rate of pay? Doubtful, but it sounds like he is satisfied with where he is, so the question is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1477 "2010-10-10T20:03:31Z")
You guys need to get out more and stop taking the internet so seriously. The idea of showing this thread to my firm or the bar association is just weird. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1478 "2010-10-10T20:30:06Z")
How about the idea of telling them the concepts and principles you have stated here, and defended so staunchly? Do you believe in them firmly enough even to say them out loud? ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1479 "2010-10-10T21:19:26Z")
I’ll field this one: No. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1480 "2010-10-11T00:01:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > just weird. which means that there may be actual consequences to showing them this thread. Which of course means that RR is scared that the only people with the ability to dish out actual sanctions for his lack of responsibility, failure to meet his obligations, etc. will agree with us as to the meaning of those words. As I said, a cowardly sociopath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=75)