# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1481 "2010-10-11T01:40:33Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > Human nature and realpolitik, basically. What’s your support for the proposition that it won’t? > > I haven’t asserted a proposition, so I have nothing to support. I can just sit back and point out that you haven’t adequately supported your proposition. The reason you haven’t supported it is that the rules don’t require pro bono, so it is absurd to think that the bar association would do anything about a lawyer who informs them that they don’t do pro bono. I had a long, based-on-a-true-story post typed out, but since you’re not going to read it (and even if you did, you’ll either ignore it or weasel around it), I’m going to give you the edited highlights version instead. Some years ago there was a law firm here in Australia engaging in behaviour that was not _technically_ against the rules, but was most definitely not to the professional standards that lawyers are expected to uphold and conduct themselves with. A disaffected client went to the media about the firm, and the mother of all media shitstorms blew up. It was a PR nightmare for the Legal Profession, who were being tarred and feathered in the media, and they had to act. Suffice it to say that The Rules were changed to expressly forbid the sort of thing this firm had been doing, and make it very clear where the line between Acceptable and Not Acceptable was on the issue. Further, the firm involved no longer exists and the lawyers responsible for the unacceptable practices got in a lot of very serious trouble. Now, the issue involved here was far more serious than an article clerk thumbing their nose at the idea of Pro Bono, but the point I’m making is that if you were to go to your Bar Association and say “I, Rand Rover, Lawyer, do hereby declare that Pro Bono work is complete bullshit and lawyers should not be expected to engage in it, and further I refuse to do it because [insert manifesto here]”, the _least_ they’re likely to do is write you a sternly worded letter reminding you that Pro Bono work is expected of lawyers because [see everyone else’s responses in this thread, but in a more formal tone]. When I say it’s only going to get worse from there, I mean that if a hypothetical colleague of yours with a hypothetical professional grudge against you (maybe because he thought he deserved the Widget case, or whatever) might happen to be having a few drinks with a friend of his who happens to be a journalist, and mention how there’s this guy at his work who not only refuses to do pro bono but thinks that people who might want pro bono are smelly druggies or rednecks or unworthy peasants or whatever, then it doesn’t take a lot of effort for a journalist to do some searching and find out that- shock, horror! many lawyers do _no_ pro bono at all. Do [apparently large percentage] of lawyers disdain the people who made need their help most of all? [Stories about worthy community groups folding because of massive legal bills or lack of access to legal services]. Against that background, the bar association’s response might be somewhat less “Formal Letter”-y and more “Word in the ear of the Senior Partners of the State’s biggest Law Firms” to suggest they make Pro Bono (or a donation) as “non-optional” as possible. And eventually someone’s going to remember the guy in the office down the hall who rants about how much he hates pro bono and thinks the people who want/need it are smelly unworthies, and that person (which may or may not be you, as I’m sure there are other lawyers with the same views who at least have the good sense not to espouse them on internet messageboards comprised almost entirely of non-lawyers) and that person is quite likely to find their career mysteriously stalled. More importantly, once you’ve been advised by the Bar Association that “Really, old chum, you have to at least _try_ and do Pro Bono, can’t you just write some form letters for a local sports club to help sort out that insurance issue? There’s a good chap” if your Pro Bono reports for the next year or so still continue to show “Zero Hours” then one might reasonably expect the Senior Partners to want to have a Very Serious Chat about it. Or, maybe nothing will happen. But I’ve worked in the corporate world long enough to know that’s not likely to the be the case. When The People In Charge tell you they want something done, you’d better have an outstandingly good reason for not doing it. And “But I Don’t Want To!” doesn’t usually count, unfortunately. So all of that is basically the support for my assertion that, were you to openly declare to your Bar Association (or Managing Partners) that you absolutely refuse to do Pro Bono for the reasons you’ve outlined at length throughout this thread, the _least_ that would happen is a Formal Letter advising you of the expectation that lawyers will at least try to engage in _some_ Pro Bono work. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1482 "2010-10-11T01:54:04Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > just weird. > > which means that there may be actual consequences to showing them this thread. > > Which of course means that RR is scared that the only people with the ability to dish out actual sanctions for his lack of responsibility, failure to meet his obligations, etc. will agree with us as to the meaning of those words. > > As I said, a cowardly sociopath. Well, you’ve convinced me–that’s some sound logic right there. Thank you prr for showing me the error of my ways. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1483 "2010-10-11T03:31:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You guys need to get out more and stop taking the internet so seriously. The idea of showing this thread to my firm or the bar association is just weird. “Heh, it’s so funny that you think I would care… it is to _laugh_! No, but seriously, I know you’re just joking… cut it out, you big kidders! Heh…heheh…” ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1484 "2010-10-11T05:47:46Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > At the firm where I worked, pro bono work had a billing number, and even though it was not billed it counted as a “billable” when you were counting such things–going up for partnership, etc. Yeah, seems weird that the firm would try to guilt somebody into it, if they weren’t willing themselves to foot the bill so to speak. I guess there are a few ways to do it: 1. Be a total dick about it. Guilt your employees into giving away work for free, without compensating them in any way, just to make your firm look good without outing your money where your mouth is. Install some kind of juvenile gold star system. Is this what they did? 2. Don’t ask don’t tell. Not really bring up the issue one way or the other. 3. DADT except at promotion time. No pressure to do pro bono, but on the other hand, lack of effort in this regard put a slight negative light on your yearly review, or at the very least, doesn’t help. 4. Pro bono work treated as regular cases. You get paid the same as a regular billable case. That said, I don’t have an issue with pro bono work being a legal requirement of having a bar license as long as it’s not too onerous. Our laws guarantee the right to jury of peers and so we call normal citizens to jury duty. Similarly, they guarantee tight to counsel for the indigent, so it is not unreasonable to require similar service in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1485 "2010-10-11T05:57:19Z")
OTOH I have to wonder about law specialization. I mean, certainly, there are a ton of super poor folks who need defending from petty or non petty offenses of violent or substance related crimes. But really, how many poor people need the help of pro bono lawyers in areas other than blue collar criminal cases? I mean, what use really is someone in real estate law as a pro bono volunteer? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1486 "2010-10-11T06:39:31Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I mean, what use really is someone in real estate law as a pro bono volunteer? [Really?](http://consumerist.com/2010/10/bank-of-americas-greatest-foreclosure-fck-ups.html) ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1487 "2010-10-11T11:26:46Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > But really, how many poor people need the help of pro bono lawyers in areas other than blue collar criminal cases? Apart from what **Darth Nader** noted, so-called ‘poor people’ require legal assistance in just about every aspect of the law as those of more ample means…criminal, civil and business law included. And I think you’re working on the assumption that those in need of _pro-bono_ assistance are always going to be the ‘defendents’ in any given case. There are also many who are seeking legal redress from the opposite side who do not have the financial wherewithall to do that: being poor should never be a contraindication to getting justice. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1488 "2010-10-11T13:00:25Z")
Poor people fill out tax returns too. Some even could benefit from tax-based financial planning and legal advice, however basic that may be. And people with limited means trying to get small businesses started could even benefit from the kind of expertise \*\*Randy \*\*claims to have. How big a deal is it to spend an afternoon at the local community center helping people with that kind of problem? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1489 "2010-10-11T13:15:24Z")
Well, guess which afternoon of the week you’re talking about EL? That’s why it’s a big deal. Also, I have no expertise that would be useful for a poor person filling out a tax return. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1490 "2010-10-11T13:26:01Z")
Haven’t filled out a 1040EZ since your lemonade stand’s IPO, eh? You li’l magnate, you! ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1491 "2010-10-11T14:43:54Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > What you’ve have smeared all over your face for thirty pages now. Ahahahahaha poop jokes. > [@Muffin](#): > > And there you go again, confusing obligation with responsibility. I would challenge that terminology. I’d say he’s conflating obligation/responsibility/duty with _requirement_. The former are all more or less equivalent, in the sense that they don’t require an official sanction, whereas the latter involves some sort of punishment if you don’t fulfill it. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The idea of showing this thread to my firm or the bar association is just weird. No, it’s _hilarious_, because (a) it would get you in trouble so (b) your weak ass will never do it. No one here thinks you’d actually have the courage to tell that senior partner what you really think, because we know exactly the kind of cowardly internet blowhard you are. Whereas if I ever worked for a company that tried to pull actual United Way bullshit on me, I’d absolutely tell my manager exactly why I was declining to participate. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1492 "2010-10-11T15:19:33Z")
SFG–love the internet blowhard accusation followed immediately by a demonstration on how to be an internet blowhard (“Boy, I sure would tell them, you betcha!!!”). Also, thank you for recognizing that it is you and the Muffster who are having problems with terminology while I’m bypassing all that to discuss the underlying concepts. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1493 "2010-10-11T15:19:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Poor people fill out tax returns too. Some even could benefit from tax-based financial planning and legal advice, however basic that may be. And people with limited means trying to get small businesses started could even benefit from the kind of expertise \*\*Randy \*\*claims to have. > > How big a deal is it to spend an afternoon at the local community center helping people with that kind of problem? Don’t play this game - there is no reason a tax lawyer should limit him or her self to tax work for pro bono. Much of what I have done has nothing to do with my practice area. For much pro bono work, what gets results is a simple letter, signed with Esquire. And now, forgive me for getting a little witnessy/preachy… The person who is missing out the most by **RandRover** not doing pro bono is **RandRover** himself. Don’t get me wrong, I love the billable aspect of my job (a lot of the time) but there is little chance to get the same kind of thrill as I got on Friday, telling an elderly holocaust survivor he was approved for a pension from the German government, and hearing him say how he was going to use the back payment to take his grandkids to Disneyworld. I’m a father as well as you, **RandRover** , and I am jealous of the time I get to spend with my son. But I’ll put my annual billable hours up against yours and I would think we are both in the same ball park. I find the time for pro bono as much for my son as for anything else. It teaches him that the law has a purpose and a meaning; that justice can be done in the end, regardless of income. I wouldn’t trade Friday’s experience for any number of meetings with clients. Or the experience of standing beside someone as they got asylum in the U.S. And hopefully, justice willing, in a couple of years I’m going to get to stand with a mother waiting outside a prison for her son to be released after over 20 years served for a crime he didn’t commit. And I want my son to be there with me, again so he can see the power of perseverance in the face of injustice. It’s you who is missing out, even more than the people who would be served if you fulfilled your professional responsibility. And it’s sad you don’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1494 "2010-10-11T16:08:25Z")
Villa, I understand your point, I just disagree. To me, the aspects of pro bono that I see as negative outweigh the positive aspects you mentioned. So, I’m not ignoring the points you raised, I just have a different assessment than you of the likely overall result of doing pro bono work. People can disagree on these things, and that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1495 "2010-10-11T16:13:47Z")
Bumping over from the GQ thread: > [@What percentage of lawyers do Zero Pro Bono work?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-lawyers-do-zero-pro-bono-work/556742/17): > > No state requires a lawyer to do pro bono work. Why the non-attorneys on this board have gotten that idea in their heads, I’ll never know. > > Like **RR** , I’m also beginning to resent the idea that attorneys alone among the professions are obligated to render these services for free. To tell you the truth, attorneys see our pro bono _aspirations_ (note the choice of words) as a matter of grace and _noblesse oblige_—not one of penance. Don’t make us think better of our generosity by getting greedy. Precisely correct. You’re given power that not just anyone is allowed to use. With power comes responsibility. I swear, some people needed a lot more Superman and Spiderman in their youth. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1496 "2010-10-11T16:39:44Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > SFG–love the internet blowhard accusation followed immediately by a demonstration on how to be an internet blowhard (“Boy, I sure would tell them, you betcha!!!”). The difference between us is that I have balls and would actually follow through. For an example of this, there was a summer in college where I spent a month working for a company that did telephone fundraising for nonprofits. When we were assigned some calls for the RNC, I looked through the book of canned responses to questions and realized that it was full of lies and distortions. I sat down with my manager and told him that I could not in good conscience give the required responses, and I volunteered to take unpaid breaks any time we were making calls for the RNC. > [@](#): > > Also, thank you for recognizing that it is you and the Muffster who are having problems with terminology while I’m bypassing all that to discuss the underlying concepts. I have zero problems. I’ve backed up \*my \*definitions with a series of citations. You’ve just continued to twist the language to suit your own self-centered desires. > [@villa](#): > > I’m a father as well as you Whoa–why did I think you were a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1497 "2010-10-11T16:47:36Z")
That’s good SFG, jst keep blowing harder. Why do you think I’m “twisting the kanguage”? I’ve given very clear definitions of the terms I’m using. You and others continue to use fuzzy words without understanding what you are really saying. This gets back to the lack of analysis in yiur posts and yiur belief that a moral obligation is the same as an actual obligation. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1498 "2010-10-11T16:53:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > That’s good SFG, jst keep blowing harder. It’s okay, **Randy** –maybe those balls will drop someday. > [@](#): > > Why do you think I’m “twisting the kanguage”? I’ve given very clear definitions of the terms I’m using. Let’s see, which one of us has cited actual dictionary definitions repeatedly? Oh, yes, that’s right–me. And which one of us has constantly defined and redifined nonexistent, self-serving terms that have no meaning outside of this thread? Oh, yes, that’s right–you. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1499 "2010-10-11T17:04:22Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > I’m a father as well as you > > Whoa–why did I think you were a woman? The “a” at the end of my name? I also post a fair amount with pretty hard core views on rape law/abortion, probably more than on other topics, and I could see how that might make someone think I was female. Standard disclaimers - not that one’s position on rape/abortion is determined by sex etc. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1500 "2010-10-11T17:06:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Villa, I understand your point, I just disagree. To me, the aspects of pro bono that I see as negative outweigh the positive aspects you mentioned. So, I’m not ignoring the points you raised, I just have a different assessment than you of the likely overall result of doing pro bono work. People can disagree on these things, and that’s OK. It wasn’t an attempt to argue. I’ve made my point (multiple times) on whether you have a responsibility, and I’ve given up on that. I just think it is genuinely sad what you are missing out on, and it is also genuinely sad that you are missing out on such a teaching opportunity for your daughter, to show her that being a lawyer is about more than the pay check Daddy brings home. But in the end, that is your choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=76)