# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 76
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1501 "2010-10-11T17:33:18Z")
I have not read this thread (30 pages!), just the OP and some of the responses. I can’t begin to tell you how disturbing I find most of the responses. I grew up in communist Cuba, and every single day we were all told we “had to do our part for the Revolution”, by performing ‘volunteer’ work. I put ‘volunteer’ in quotes because there was nothing volunteer about it. Failure to perform volunteer work was noted in one’s student record, work record, and party record. I don’t expect anyone of you to understand, but all of you who are trying to shame Rand Rover because of his stance on volunteer work would make perfect little communists. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1502 "2010-10-11T17:34:25Z")
It’s in the code of conduct for the bar association. If it weren’t, we wouldn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1503 "2010-10-11T17:35:48Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > That’s good SFG, jst keep blowing harder. > > It’s okay, **Randy** –maybe those balls will drop someday. > > > [@](#): > > > > Why do you think I’m “twisting the kanguage”? I’ve given very clear definitions of the terms I’m using. > > Let’s see, which one of us has cited actual dictionary definitions repeatedly? Oh, yes, that’s right–me. And which one of us has constantly defined and redifined nonexistent, self-serving terms that have no meaning outside of this thread? Oh, yes, that’s right–you. More idiocy. Dictionary definitions aren’t all that helpful here because they contain several entries that show how a word can be used to refer to many different concepts. I haven’t re-defined or twisted the definition of a single word–ive only used terms that I provided specific meaning for. I’m doing the opposite of what you are acusing me of and you are too stupid to realize it. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1504 "2010-10-11T17:41:46Z")
I’m with **RR** on this. We dislike **RR** because even though we are all selfish inside, we shouldn’t bare ourselves in public like **RR** does. It’s just not polite and upsets our illusions of benevolence. Its something to be buried deep inside, covered up with pretensions of charity mainly set up to make ourselves feel better. Better to find someone with some aspect lacking in ethics than to examine our own motives. That’s not feel good and feeling good what we are all about. Actually, we should all aspire to spend some of our time helping the less fortunate. How many do? Do we need an institution to publish it for us before we start doing it? The nature of pro bono is such that doing it even party because ABA suggests it, takes away from its spirit. It should come from within. It never makes someone unethical if that person doesn’t do so, but pointing it out makes you a jerk for sure. For example: My babysitter should aspire to put the toys away etc, if she has the time and the baby is sleeping but I would be a jerk for ever even mentioning it to her. What’s so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1505 "2010-10-11T17:54:26Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Villa, I understand your point, I just disagree. To me, the aspects of pro bono that I see as negative outweigh the positive aspects you mentioned. So, I’m not ignoring the points you raised, I just have a different assessment than you of the likely overall result of doing pro bono work. People can disagree on these things, and that’s OK. > > It wasn’t an attempt to argue. I’ve made my point (multiple times) on whether you have a responsibility, and I’ve given up on that. I just think it is genuinely sad what you are missing out on, and it is also genuinely sad that \*\*you are missing out on such a teaching opportunity for your daughter, to show her that being a lawyer is about more than the pay check Daddy brings home. \*\* > > But in the end, that is your choice. Doing pro bono isn’t the only way to do that. Also, I guess I could say I think it’s genuinely sad that you choose to do pro bono instead of spend time with your son, but I don’t think that–you can do whatever you want and I won’t be sad at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1506 "2010-10-11T17:59:03Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The “a” at the end of my name? I’m pretty sure that’s it. “ **villa** ” sounds feminine to me. I’ve had the same problem with **Zeriel**. > [@Redpill](#): > > We dislike **RR** because even though we are all selfish inside, we shouldn’t bare ourselves in public like **RR** does. It’s just not polite and upsets our illusions of benevolence. We’re not mocking \*\*Randy \*\*because he’s declining to do volunteer work. We’re mocking \*\*RR \*\*because he \*knowingly chose \*a profession that carries with it a responsibility to do a certain amount of work without compensation from the client (while almost always still receiving compensation from your employer) _in order to keep the system running at all_. Not only that, but he chose to work at a firm that encourages 20 hours per year from each of its employees–much lower than the suggested number–and is whining that someone higher up on the food chain dared to remind him in the most polite and casual way possible of this obligation. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1507 "2010-10-11T18:12:05Z")
I always open this thread when **SFG** has made the most recent posting–she’s always on target and making cogent sense. I do have a point to add, however: I’m getting on **RR** ’s case because he puts the flaws with objectivism into high relief. Supposedly, they will in their wisdom dispense justice, and kindness, and social responsibility far better on an individual, case-by-case basis than any government or business is capable of doing, and they do it because they feel bound by agreements they have made individually to do so. But here you have a case where **RR** deliberately joined a profession and a firm with clearly spelled out responsibilities and obligations to provide (or at least to aspire to provide) pro bono services, with he and they being trained in reading contracts and terms of employment and of admission to the state bar, yet this selfish piece of shit dismisses those clear responsiblities and obligations on the most specious of grounds (basically, “I interpret those obligations differently so I don’t gotta–ha, ha, ha”) and has the colossal nerve to bitch about it to people who are powerless to compell him, while making sure that his beliefs are kept secret from anyone with that power over him. He’s the ultimate argument against allowing individual consciences, rather than compulsion, make any significant choices. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1508 "2010-10-11T18:13:12Z")
There you go again, SFG, treating pro bono as an actual obligation instead of a moral obligation. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1509 "2010-10-11T18:17:46Z")
Fine, you wanna keep inventing your own language? I’ll use it against you. Moral obligation: You should do pro bono work because it would make you a better person. Actual obligation: You should do pro bono work because your professional association and employer both say that you have a responsibility to do so, because you knew and agreed to these terms when you accepted your licensing and position, and because if everyone ignored their responsibilities like you do, the legal system in the U.S. would cease to function. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1510 "2010-10-11T18:18:04Z")
moral obligations, of course, being those that you are free to ignore while laughing at the fools who feel bound by them? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1511 "2010-10-11T18:19:35Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Doing pro bono isn’t the only way to do that. I can’t think of a better way, especially a way that also fulfills my professional responsibilities. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, I guess I could say I think it’s genuinely sad that you choose to do pro bono instead of spend time with your son, but I don’t think that–you can do whatever you want and I won’t be sad at all. I don’t. I balance my life well. And I’m sad for you because I think you are makign the wrong choice; which is of course your personal right. I’m sadder for your your choices and the way you represent them affect me, in that they negatively impact the public perception of our joint profession. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1512 "2010-10-11T18:23:49Z")
**Randy** , here’s another question for you. In your crazy world of “moral obligations” and “actual obligations,” where do you think the following fall: 1.) Loving your daughter. 2.) Giving her more food than the bare minimum required to prevent malnourishment and malnutrition. 3.) Buying her any sort of items related to entertainment: toys, books, games. 4.) Engaging in any kind of play with your daughter. 5.) Speaking to your daughter with anything but contempt and disgust. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1513 "2010-10-11T18:37:51Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > For example: My babysitter should aspire to put the toys away etc, if she has the time and the baby is sleeping but I would be a jerk for ever even mentioning it to her. What’s so hard to understand? Well… why you think that’s a good comparison, for one thing. To improve upon it a bit: You tell the babysitter you’d appreciate it if she’d put up the baby’s toys if she has the time and the baby is sleeping. “Sure thing, Mr. Pill!” she cheerily replies. You arrive home to find the babysitter slumped on the couch, feet propped on the coffee table, staring slackjawed at “Jersey Shore” blaring from the television. Toys are scattered across the floor and the baby is upstairs sound asleep. You ask her about the toys. “Oh, yeah, I just didn’t feel like it. You didn’t say I HAD to, and I knew you’d pay me anyway, so I didn’t bother. Can I have my money now?” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1514 "2010-10-11T18:41:01Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > **Randy** , here’s another question for you. In your crazy world of “moral obligations” and “actual obligations,” where do you think the following fall: > > 1.) Loving your daughter. > 2.) Giving her more food than the bare minimum required to prevent malnourishment and malnutrition. > 3.) Buying her any sort of items related to entertainment: toys, books, games. > 4.) Engaging in any kind of play with your daughter. > 5.) Speaking to your daughter with anything but contempt and disgust. When Bob tells Linda that Linda has a moral obligation to do X, all Bob is saying is “I would prefer it if you do X.” (He migh also be arguing on a policy level–ie, that it should be illagal for Linda not to do X, but let’s stick with the first thing for now). There’s no such thing as a moral obligation that exists in the real world. Bob’s statement doesn’t create any recourse against Linda if Linda doesn’t do X (except that Bob would presumably not like Linda and may do something bad to her depending on their relationship). I want to do (and do, in fact, do) all of the things in your list. Therefore, I don’t understand what it means for you to ask whether I think I have a moral obligation to do them. It’s a meaningless question. If I said “I believe I have a moral obligation to do those things,” all I would be telling you is that I would prefer to do those things, which I’ve already said. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1515 "2010-10-11T18:44:41Z")
VT–your scenario isn’t analogous to pro bono because there’s no “Sure thing, MR. Pill!” in the pro bono scenario. Lawyers promise to uphold the rules. Doing pro bono isn’t required to uphold the rules. So they don’t promise to do pro bono. ---
**Author:** ![Richie\_Incognito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Richie\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richie_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1516 "2010-10-11T18:48:04Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > **Randy** , here’s another question for you. In your crazy world of “moral obligations” and “actual obligations,” where do you think the following fall: > > 1.) Loving your daughter. > 2.) Giving her more food than the bare minimum required to prevent malnourishment and malnutrition. > 3.) Buying her any sort of items related to entertainment: toys, books, games. > 4.) Engaging in any kind of play with your daughter. > 5.) Speaking to your daughter with anything but contempt and disgust. Give it a rest. The crazy world of “moral obligations” and “actual obligations” is the world we all live in. The point is, if it is not a legal obligation you should be allowed to have a choice. I’m not following what’s so difficult about that concept. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1517 "2010-10-11T18:57:31Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > We’re mocking \*\*RR \*\*because he \*knowingly chose \*a profession that carries with it a responsibility to do a certain amount of work without compensation from the client (while almost always still receiving compensation from your employer) _in order to keep the system running at all_. Not only that, but he chose to work at a firm that encourages 20 hours per year from each of its employees–much lower than the suggested number–and is whining that someone higher up on the food chain dared to remind him in the most polite and casual way possible of this obligation. He knowingly chose a profession where he does not have to do pro bono. He does not have that responsibility. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Fine, you wanna keep inventing your own language? I’ll use it against you. > > Moral obligation: You should do pro bono work because it would make you a better person. Morals obligations are for other’s benefit not yours. Also they cannot be strongarmed from above. > [@villa](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Also, I guess I could say I think it’s genuinely sad that you choose to do pro bono instead of spend time with your son, but I don’t think that–you can do whatever you want and I won’t be sad at all. > > I don’t. I balance my life well. And I’m sad for you because I think you are makign the wrong choice; which is of course your personal right. I’m sadder for your your choices and the way you represent them affect me, in that they negatively impact the public perception of our joint profession. How about feeling sad for yourself for being arrogant and judgmental? > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > **Randy** , here’s another question for you. In your crazy world of “moral obligations” and “actual obligations,” where do you think the following fall: > > 1.) Loving your daughter. > 2.) Giving her more food than the bare minimum required to prevent malnourishment and malnutrition. > 3.) Buying her any sort of items related to entertainment: toys, books, games. > 4.) Engaging in any kind of play with your daughter. > 5.) Speaking to your daughter with anything but contempt and disgust. This way off the subject being discussed. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > > [@Redpill](#): > > > > For example: My babysitter should aspire to put the toys away etc, if she has the time and the baby is sleeping but I would be a jerk for ever even mentioning it to her. What’s so hard to understand? > > Well… why you think that’s a good comparison, for one thing. > > To improve upon it a bit: > > You tell the babysitter you’d appreciate it if she’d put up the baby’s toys if she has the time and the baby is sleeping. “Sure thing, Mr. Pill!” she cheerily replies. > > You arrive home to find the babysitter slumped on the couch, feet propped on the coffee table, staring slackjawed at “Jersey Shore” blaring from the television. Toys are scattered across the floor and the baby is upstairs sound asleep. > > You ask her about the toys. “Oh, yeah, I just didn’t feel like it. You didn’t say I HAD to, and I knew you’d pay me anyway, so I didn’t bother. Can I have my money now?” Now you are assuming RR is an incompetent lawyer with and/or plenty of free time at work. Both false premises with colorful language. Even if assumed true, it does not make him unethical, just lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1518 "2010-10-11T19:18:17Z")
I actually sat down and started to compose reasoned responses to **Randy** , **Richie** , and **Redpill**. Ahahahaha. Thank god I came to my fucking senses before I wasted any more time. I think everything can be more properly summed up by this sentiment: Wow–you’re really a pack of fucking tards. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1519 "2010-10-11T19:23:49Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I actually sat down and started to compose reasoned responses to **Randy** , **Richie** , and **Redpill**. Ahahahaha. Thank god I came to my fucking senses before I wasted any more time. I think everything can be more properly summed up by this sentiment: > > Wow–you’re really a pack of fucking tards. I summarily deny having sex with RR or RI or both. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1520 "2010-10-11T19:33:45Z")
Damn you redpill for beating me to that! I was going to say that I was unaware of your mental status before or during the fucking. Also, SFG, you continue to show the stuff you’re made of. You are so invested in your little childish view of “moral obligations” that a little dose of reality turns you into a sputtering idiot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=75) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=77)