# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1541 "2010-10-12T00:14:29Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > I’m not debating that there is a tradition of pro-bono, just that not doing it doesn’t make one unethical. If a profession’s (lawyers) tradition and ethics dictate that certain activities (Pro Bono) should be undertaken by that profession’s members- and such an expectation has been made abundantly clear from the start- then not doing so is unethical. > [@](#): > > Being arrogant and judgemental is something to be sad about in my book. Why? > [@](#): > > If RR should admit to being a sociopath just because you say so, maybe you can admit to being a commie just because I say so. It’s only fair. The thing is, I haven’t spent the last 30-odd pages arguing in favour of State ownership of all property, the distribution of wealth from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs, glorifying the deeds and words of Che Guevara, Stalin, Marx, and Chairman Mao, sung _The Internationale_, decrying the bourgeoise nature of [whatever], or calling upon the workers to rise up and throw off the chains of oppression they bear at the hands of the [del]Imperialist Running Dogs[/del] corporate fat-cats and moneyed classes. Mr. Rover, however, _has_ spent the last 30 pages loudly proclaiming his distaste and dislike for one of his chosen profession’s oldest principles, the reasons why he feels that anyone who needs Pro Bono isn’t worthy of receiving it, why he feels The Rules Don’t Apply To Him, and twisting the definitions of commonly accepted words to suit that worldview, and ignoring anyone who makes points or arguments that he doesn’t like or can’t refute. There is, in short, far more evidence in this thread for Mr. Rover being a sociopath than there is for me being a Communist. > [@](#): > > Being busy, lazy or not caring does not make one a sociopath or unethical. Sorry. Being busy doesn’t make one unethical. I don’t think anyone has argued that. Being lazy definitely makes one unethical in a professional field like law, and “not caring” is just as bad, especially in a professional context. > [@](#): > > Your religion comment doesn’t even make the slightest sense. Yes, it does. Religious Moral requirements (Think “The Ten Commandments”) are intended for the individual’s benefit (making them a better person) as well as that of society as a whole. And in the not-too-distant past (and even the present, in some places), failing to live up to them can have dire consequences. Try being an average Muslim who gets caught drinking alcohol in somewhere like Saudi Arabia and see what happens. You’ll find that Moral requirments quite frequently _are_ strong-armed from above. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1542 "2010-10-12T00:34:11Z")
I’m sorry, I just don’t agree with your views but do respect them. The primary objective of religious or any moral principle is selflessness, doing for others not yourself. If you do something primarily to make yourself a better person, that is self service not to be confused with morality. Thats why there were and are penalties, because they affect the society, however that’s strong-arming and it doesn’t work. Muslims do drink in SA, but just avoid getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1543 "2010-10-12T01:01:42Z")
By the way I’m in no way against pro-bono work. I wish more lawyers would take the time to do it. I myself could not afford a lawyer for anything major if need arose and would be most thankful to find a low priced / free legal help. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1544 "2010-10-12T01:13:36Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Mr. Rover, however, _has_ spent the last 30 pages loudly proclaiming his distaste and dislike for one of his chosen profession’s oldest principles, the reasons why he feels that anyone who needs Pro Bono isn’t worthy of receiving it, why he feels The Rules Don’t Apply To Him, and twisting the definitions of commonly accepted words to suit that worldview, and ignoring anyone who makes points or arguments that he doesn’t like or can’t refute. Yeah, except that I haven’t done any of that. Look Martini, you need to grow up and get over your belief in the reality of a moral obligation. You think you can tap into the Great Unconscious or whatever and determine what is moral and what is not, and if anyone disagrees with you, you feel justified in condemning them and calling them a sociopath. But there is no Great Unconscious. The Moral Realm doesn’t exist. When you say “you have a moral obligation to do that,” you are just saying “I would prefer that you do that.” That’s it. Also, there’s no santa claus either. Or easter bunny. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1545 "2010-10-12T01:32:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeah, except that I haven’t done any of that. Yes, you have. > [@](#): > > Look Martini, you need to grow up and get over your belief in the reality of a moral obligation. You think you can tap into the Great Unconscious or whatever and determine what is moral and what is not, and if anyone disagrees with you, you feel justified in condemning them and calling them a sociopath. At no point have I _ever_ mentioned The Great Unconscious or the Moral Realm. And I’m not the one who started calling you a sociopath, BTW. > [@Redpill](#): > > Muslims do drink in SA, but just avoid getting caught. I’m well aware that there are plenty of Muslims who drink, even in Muslim countries. That wasn’t what I said. I said “Try being an average Muslim **who gets caught** drinking alcohol in somewhere like Saudi Arabia and see what happens.” > [@Redpill](#): > > By the way I’m in no way against pro-bono work. I wish more lawyers would take the time to do it. > > I myself could not afford a lawyer for anything major if need arose and would be most thankful to find a low priced / free legal help. So why the smeg are you in here defending a lawyer who has almost explicitly said that you’re not worthy of receiving Pro Bono help by virtue of the fact you can’t afford to pay a lawyer and must therefore be one of the lower orders??? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1546 "2010-10-12T01:42:24Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Yeah, except that I haven’t done any of that. > > Yes, you have. Nuh-uh. Your turn. > [@](#): > > At no point have I _ever_ mentioned The Great Unconscious or the Moral Realm. So what do you mean exactly by this: > [@](#): > > If a profession’s (lawyers) tradition and ethics dictate that certain activities (Pro Bono) should be undertaken by that profession’s members- and such an expectation has been made abundantly clear from the start- then not doing so is unethical. It sure sounds like you think that saying something is unethical means more than just “I don’t like it.” > [@](#): > > So why the smeg are you in here defending a lawyer who has almost explicitly said that you’re not worthy of receiving Pro Bono help by virtue of the fact you can’t afford to pay a lawyer and must therefore be one of the lower orders??? 😕 Again, I’ve never said anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1547 "2010-10-12T01:46:10Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’m well aware that there are plenty of Muslims who drink, even in Muslim countries. That wasn’t what I said. I said “Try being an average Muslim **who gets caught** drinking alcohol in somewhere like Saudi Arabia and see what happens.” > > > [@Redpill](#): > > > > By the way I’m in no way against pro-bono work. I wish more lawyers would take the time to do it. > > > > I myself could not afford a lawyer for anything major if need arose and would be most thankful to find a low priced / free legal help. > > So why the smeg are you in here defending a lawyer who has almost explicitly said that you’re not worthy of receiving Pro Bono help by virtue of the fact you can’t afford to pay a lawyer and must therefore be one of the lower orders??? 😕 The penalty stops or reduces the act but not the desire to do so and desire usually finds a loophole. Hence its better for morality to originate from within instead of imposed. That’s why we should not coerce people to be moral, just let them be. I’m defending his decision not to do pro-bono work if he does not feel like it. Its for society’s own benefit not to compel people to do what it thinks of as good. Let the people who really want to do it, do it. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1548 "2010-10-12T01:53:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > Yes, you have. > > Nuh-uh. Your turn. How about you address some of the unanswered questions that have been raised; namely my proposition that were you to actually openly declare to your bar association your views on this matter, the least you’d expect is a Formal Letter to the effect of “You’re Wrong” and it would only get worse from there? Or the assertation that the time you’ve spent involved in this thread would equate to a significant amount of your firm’s Pro Bono time goal requirements? Or any of the other very valid points that others have raised which you’ve conveniently ignored or weaselled around? > [@](#): > > It sure sounds like you think that saying something is unethical means more than just “I don’t like it.” I am. But “Great Unconscious” has nothing to do with it. “Not being a dick for the sheer hell of it” does, though. > [@](#): > > Again, I’ve never said anything like that. Oh, for smeg’s sake. You’re not “Winning” this argument, RR. Seriously. 30-odd pages of discussion and _one_ person agrees with you in any substantial way. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1549 "2010-10-12T02:03:41Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > _one_ person agrees with you in any substantial way. And that one “person” first posted in this thread (on 9/20 [2010](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12933702&postcount=628)), \* has the vast majority of his 31 posts (to this point) in this thread, and may or may not be **RR** hisself. My money is on “may”. - his second, actually. His first post was made two minutes earlier. And I’m not even raising stylistic similarities between his prose style and **RR** ’s. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1550 "2010-10-12T02:06:01Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Nuh-uh. Your turn. > > How about you address some of the unanswered questions that have been raised; namely my proposition that were you to actually openly declare to your bar association your views on this matter, the least you’d expect is a Formal Letter to the effect of “You’re Wrong” and it would only get worse from there? Or the assertation that the time you’ve spent involved in this thread would equate to a significant amount of your firm’s Pro Bono time goal requirements? Or any of the other very valid points that others have raised which you’ve conveniently ignored or weaselled around? These are all stupid-ass points. My bar association would not say “you’re wrong” to me because I’m not wrong. It very clearly is the case that a lawyer does not have an actual obligation to do pro bono. The time I’ve spent here has nothing to do with anything. I can’t do pro bono work in fits and starts of 4 minutes here and there throughout the day like I can participate in this thread. And there are other reasons that I don’t want to do pro bono besides the time commitment, as I’ve discussed above. I’ve answered everything else that a reasonable person could call “very valid.” > [@](#): > > I am. Congratulations, you’re an idiot. There’s no tooth fairy either, you know. And saying “that’s unethical” just means “I don’t like it.” That’s it. There’s no absolute standard for determining whether or not something’s unethical. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1551 "2010-10-12T02:08:17Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > He knowingly chose a profession where he does not have to do pro bono. He does not have that responsibility. There is no penalty if he does not do pro bono, but he does have a responsibility to pro bono. He is goverened by the following Illinois Rules of Professional Conduct: “[6A] It is also the responsibility of those licensed as officers of the court to use their training, experience, and skills to provide services in the public interest for which compensation may not be available.” [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12926978&postcount=534](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12926978&postcount=534) If you still are of the opinion that “He does not have that responsibility,” then please explain your opinion in light of 6A. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1552 "2010-10-12T02:14:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > > [@Redpill](#): > > > > He knowingly chose a profession where he does not have to do pro bono. He does not have that responsibility. > > There is no penalty if he does not do pro bono, but he does have a responsibility to pro bono. > > He is goverened by the following Illinois Rules of Professional Conduct: “[6A] It is also the responsibility of those licensed as officers of the court to use their training, experience, and skills to provide services in the public interest for which compensation may not be available.” [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12926978&postcount=534](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12926978&postcount=534) > > If you still are of the opinion that “He does not have that responsibility,” then please explain your opinion in light of 6A. Again, Muffin, you refuse to define what you mean by “to have a responsibility.” The preamble to the rules (not the rules themselves) very clearly does say that a lawyer has a responsibility to do pro bono. But the rules also very clearly do not say that a lawyer must do pro bono in order to comply with the rules or remain being a lawyer. So, when you say “RR has a responsibility to do pro bono,” that is a false statement if by “responsibility” you mean “an actual obligation” (as I’ve defined that term in this thread). If by “RR has a responsiblity to do pro bono” you only mean that I have a moral obligation, then you can say that if you want to, but that doesn’t mean I have an actual obligation. These are simple concepts, people. But instead of discussing the actual concepts, many of you choose to keep repeating your little pet words (requirement, obligation, responsibility, duty) and then accusing me of weaseling. I’m trying to fight your ignorance (it keeps fighting back). If you want to call that “weaseling,” then so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1553 "2010-10-12T02:28:38Z")
" An individual lawyer’s efforts in these areas is evidence of the lawyer’s good character and fitness to practice law, and the efforts of the bar as a whole are essential to the bar’s maintenance of professionalism. " Above is what I disagree with. Spending a little bit of time or money doing pro-bono does not make you of good character, nor make the bar professional. It only makes it appear so on paper, and that’s what’s asked here. Do some pro-bono, report it, we all look good. To me this is fake charity, not worth doing. Sure I can agree that as defined by section 6A RR is not being responsible, but its a very narrow viewpoint. Hardly enough to make someone unethical or immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1554 "2010-10-12T02:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=Rand Rover] Also, there’s no santa claus either. [/QUOTE] [Nonsense.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NINxQLY-lsY) Proof is found in the eulogy of our late Prime Minister / Attorney General, who brought our Constitution home to us and gave us our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (The Constitution Act, 1982, being Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (U.K.), 1982, c. 11.) Santa Claus is the epitome of pro bono. That you do not receive any presents from Santa Claus is simply a result of the “naughty or nice” rule being applied to you in light of your not providing pro bono services. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1555 "2010-10-12T05:00:06Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > By the way I’m in no way against pro-bono work. I wish more lawyers would take the time to do it. > > I myself could not afford a lawyer for anything major if need arose and would be most thankful to find a low priced / free legal help. > [@Redpill](#): > > Do some pro-bono, report it, we all look good. To me this is fake charity, not worth doing. Which is it, chum? :dubious: Is pro bono worth doing only if it isn’t expected of you? Do you do a shit job, of no value to the client, if anyone else notices you doing it at all, is that it? Even \*\*Randy \*\*only compares the expectation to the United Way, not to Communism. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1556 "2010-10-12T06:16:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > [@Redpill](#): > > > > By the way I’m in no way against pro-bono work. I wish more lawyers would take the time to do it. > > > > I myself could not afford a lawyer for anything major if need arose and would be most thankful to find a low priced / free legal help. > > > [@Redpill](#): > > > > Do some pro-bono, report it, we all look good. To me this is fake charity, not worth doing. > > Which is it, chum? :dubious: Is pro bono worth doing only if it isn’t expected of you? Do you do a shit job, of no value to the client, if anyone else notices you doing it at all, is that it? > > Even \*\*Randy \*\*only compares the expectation to the United Way, not to Communism. 😃 Because it seems you are special, I’ll restate my opinion in even simpler words: Pro bono should only be done if one **wants** to do it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1557 "2010-10-12T14:27:38Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > Because it seems you are special, I’ll restate my opinion in even simpler words: > > Pro bono should only be done if one **wants** to do it. I’ll be as obvious as possible to you, then, sparky… Even if your socially and morally bankrupt Randian world, you have to realize that if you don’t aspire to do pro bono work, don’t voluntarily enter a profession in a state which involves swearing an oath that requires you to aspire to do pro bono work… It’s an ethical obligation, but one which is accepted voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1558 "2010-10-12T14:39:21Z")
Villa, not sure why you posted that, as it’s completely irrelevant. I didn’t swear an oath that requires me to aspire to do pro bono work. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1559 "2010-10-12T16:04:14Z")
_Pro bono publico_, I suggest this thread be put out of its misery. It’s flailing, clearly suffering, and obviously isn’t going to get any better, but won’t quite die on its own. Maybe there are still fans enjoying “Nuh-Uh Times Infinity” by **Randy and the Rovers** in heavy rotation, but for me it’s gone a bit stale. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1560 "2010-10-12T16:12:10Z")
But he’s SUCH an asshole!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=79)