# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 80
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1581 "2010-10-12T19:33:34Z")
Also, prr, any time you want a go, I’m here for you. You bring the brick and I’ll bring the skull. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1582 "2010-10-12T19:38:27Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > EP–you realize there’s no santa claus right? People like you and prr are dangerous and should be resisted as strongly as possible. I’ll never understand why you are so proud of believing in pretend fairyland and being willing to use force to cause the real world to be more like pretend fairyland. RR: We don’t live in society where there is no right or wrong, and everyone decides for themselves that they can do whatever the fuck they want. It’s never worked that way, and never will work that way. That is simply reality. In every society there are those like you, who only think of themselves, and will not voluntarily help others. In the past, these folks were shunned and kicked out of the village, or shamed into going along. Today, when there is more anonymity, we force you to contribute through taxation. Suck it up. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1583 "2010-10-12T19:41:16Z")
Meh. I can’t get worked up either way. On the one hand, society has carved out an exclusive trade for lawyers. Non-attorneys representing clients is forbidden, so the elite nature of the legal profession has been given the force of law. In exchange for this artificial monopoly, the bar associations agreed to be self-policing and ensure the ethical and socially responsible behavior of their members. Much like Wall Street said they’d use ratings agencies to make sure banks didn’t sell a shitty investment as a good investment and fuck the economy. Given the actual numbers of _pro bono_ hours worked at most firms, as opposed to the hours the bar association said they would promote when they accepted a _de facto_ monopoly on this type of service, it seems this social contract has worked out for society about as well as trusting rating agencies to be the watchdogs of Wall Street did. Can’t get too upset at someone at Moody’s who rated a batch of mortgage-backed securities AAA, their fee was contingent on a good rapport with the bank, so they did what was rational. Similary, if you can duck a onerous task, most people will. It’s the nature of the beast. It may be anti-social, assholish, or in the case of those who wrecked the economy, unconscionable, but it’s hard to get upset at a banker for being greedy, a snake for biting, or a lawyer for weaseling. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1584 "2010-10-12T19:44:22Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, prr, any time you want a go, I’m here for you. You bring the brick and I’ll bring the skull. Ooh, all these implied threats of \*violence \*are givin’ me the _vapors_! If only a big, strong MOD were around to do the \*gentlemanly \*thing and close this \*beast \*of a thread… ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1585 "2010-10-12T19:48:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > True to an extent. But when the voluntary service is critical to the functioning of a society, and when there are too many people opting out… Then society may choose (through voting) to enact policies that penalize those who do not contribute. Thus making it non-voluntary. It would be best if it were still voluntary, but the “cheaters” make that option non-functional. In our quest to penalize and collect from the “cheaters” we give up our reliance on goodwill thus making it irrelevant. A much bigger loss in my opinion. > [@](#): > > free-riders are strongly encouraged by peers to go along with the group. I don’t agree that they can be called free-riders and I don’t think the peer care much. Assuming they do care, now it becomes a chore done half-heartedly or escaped somehow. Doesn’t work, wrong approach. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1586 "2010-10-12T20:16:55Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > We don’t live in society where there is no right or wrong, Unfortunately we pretend to. We tend to live by what’s legal and illegal no matter if its right or wrong. Sometimes illegal and wrong overlap, sometimes not. We made this bed, we must sleep in it. > [@](#): > > we force you to contribute through taxation. From those who don’t want to contribute, we mostly end up forcing the dumb and powerless. The system is set up that way, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1587 "2010-10-12T20:20:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > EL and villa, try posting an actual argument that I swore to aspire to do pro bono. You are looking rather silly by repeatedly asserting that without posting an actual argument to that effect. If you think you did so earlier in this thread, then a re-post would be fine. No - you will ignore it again. I’m tired of going round and round with you on this. I have no interest in further discussing it with you. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1588 "2010-10-12T20:24:01Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > Try reading the thread before you comment, you gibbering moron. **RandRover** doesn’t aspire to it. > > He denies taking such an oath , take it up with him. By you I meant you, villa. Just because he denies it, doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Read the thread, moron. > [@](#): > > attorneys refusing to fulfil their responsibilities reflects badly on us all. > [@Redpill](#): > > Completely wrong motive for helping others. You completely missed the spirit of pro bono. And where do I say it is **my** motivation for doing pro bono, you retarded ass clown? It gives me a reason to be concerned about whether **he** does pro bono. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1589 "2010-10-12T20:35:44Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I certainly advocate the use of force, in the form of a brick over your skull, to compel any behavior out of you, since that’s the only compulsion, other than your own selfish needs, that you respect. Reminder: [QUOTE=Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit] Do not threaten harm or wish death on another poster Do not threaten another poster with physical harm, or wish for their demise. This includes hypothetical statements like “it would make me happy if someone ran you over” or “I hope you say that to [someone prone to stabbing people] and they stab you”. [/QUOTE] > **[Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit: read this before posting](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985)** > > The BBQ Pit is the forum for rants about the outside world or quarrels between posters - often the first turns into the second. Although the standards of discourse are looser than in the other forums, the Pit is NOT a free-for-all - you don’t have to... Thanks. No warning issued. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1590 "2010-10-12T20:46:43Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Just because he denies it, doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Read the thread, moron. For the second time, take it up with him. Doesn’t change my argument. Pro bono shouldn’t be coerced. > [@](#): > > And where do I say it is **my** motivation for doing pro bono, you retarded ass clown? It gives me a reason to be concerned about whether **he** does pro bono. Its your motivation for expecting from him, or any lawyer. You are a lawyer. (Are you really? I’m starting to have doubts, you lose composure too easily) PS: Why are you so angry? We are just talking. Calm down. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1591 "2010-10-12T20:52:37Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > For the second time, take it up with him. Doesn’t change my argument. Pro bono shouldn’t be coerced. And, you goat fucking imbecile, it isn’t. Even your shrivelled little walnut of a Randian brain should be able to grasp that when you voluntarily swear an oath to do something, it isn’t coerced. No one makes you become a lawyer, or join the Illinois bar. > [@Redpill](#): > > Its your motivation for expecting from him, or any lawyer. You are a lawyer. > (Are you really? I’m starting to have doubts, you lose composure too easily) > PS: Why are you so angry? We are just talking. Calm down. I am angry because idiots such as you decide to rehash things that have been discussed _ad nauseam_ because they are too fucking lazy to read the thread. When clowns like you have a smug smile on their face thinking they have contributed something novel and intelligent when it has been discussed time after time, and refuted time after time, I get a little peeved. I expect people to keep to their word. I don’t think that is too outlandish a thing. And when violating their word reflects badly on me, I expect them to do it even more. I do pro bono for multiple reasons. One of them is I swore an oath. Another is that it is the right thing to do. A third is that I want to. But even if I didn’t want to, even if it sucked, even if I loathed doing it with every fiber of my body, I would still do it, and do a good job at it. Why? Because decent people keep their word, especially when they swear a formal oath. You don’t seem to think a person’s word has any value. That says a lot about you. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1592 "2010-10-12T20:57:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@Darth\_Nader](#): > > > > Keep posting, fucktards! > > Will do, fellow fucktard! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1593 "2010-10-12T21:18:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > For example, it would be great if the elderly in our society were all looked after by everyone on a voluntary basis, helped by their neighbors because they want to, without any external pressure. In reality, this does not work. It’s been tried, and it led to extreme poverty for many old people. WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BRING YOUR COMMUNIST INTERFERENCE INTO MY GRANDMOTHER’S RIGHT TO LIVE ON CAT FOOD > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You are looking rather silly by repeatedly asserting that without posting an actual argument to that effect. It is to roffle. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, prr, any time you want a go, I’m here for you. You bring the brick and I’ll bring the skull. Since you’re apparently Mr. Tough Guy, you would presumably not object to providing one of us with your name, the name of the firm you work for, and the name of the senior partner whose polite reminder you’re whining about. After all, if you’re eager to fend off a man with a brick, you should have no problem at all defending yourself against mere words. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1594 "2010-10-12T21:19:44Z")
> [@villa](#): > > when violating their word reflects badly on me No it doesn’t. What **you** do reflects on you. Good people, bad people. Good lawyers, bad lawyers. > [@](#): > > I expect them to do it even more. You will just be disappointed and bitter. > [@](#): > > even if I loathed doing it with every fiber of my body, I would still do it, and do a good job at it. No, you wouldn’t. Try thinking about it before you say something. > [@](#): > > You don’t seem to think a person’s word has any value. Promises can get broken, all we can do is intend and try. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1595 "2010-10-12T21:27:11Z")
Wow. Aren’t you full of yourself, you pompous little shitstain. > [@Redpill](#): > > No it doesn’t. What **you** do reflects on you. Good people, bad people. Good lawyers, bad lawyers. Except people unfortunately don’t see everyone as individuals. Not everyone is as enlightened as you. I hate seeing British people tip poorly, because I know it makes it more likely that when people hear my accent, they will think I tip poorly/ I hate it when gun owners act irresponsibly because it makes it more likely that people will assume I am irresponsible when they find out I own a gun. And I hate it when lawyers act like selfish sociopaths because it reinforces the public prejudice against lawyers, and means that prejudice is more likely to negatively impact me. Yes, I can, over time, break down the stereotypes. But that isn’t easy. And other people’s actions can make it harder. > [@Redpill](#): > > You will just be disappointed and bitter. I am not going to stop expecting people to do the right thing just because some don’t. Most do. > [@Redpill](#): > > No, you wouldn’t. Try thinking about it before you say something. Where do you get off assuming you understand how I work? Are you saying I cannot do a good job at something I don’t want to do? I have multiple times done good quality work for things I don’t want to do. It’s professional pride. Try it some time. > [@Redpill](#): > > Promises can get broken, all we can do is intend and try. Try looking at the guy you are throating - he neither intended nor tried. Just swore the oath and ignored it. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1596 "2010-10-12T21:41:56Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I hate seeing British people tip poorly, I hate it when gun owners act irresponsibly And I hate it when lawyers act like selfish sociopaths Hate, hate hate because me, me, me. You will never change the world, you can only hope to change yourself and even that is extremely difficult to do proactively. Trying to break stereotypes over a long time is your best bet. > [@](#): > > I am not going to stop expecting Be my guest. > [@](#): > > I have multiple times done good quality work for things I don’t want to do. It’s professional pride. I don’t believe you. > [@](#): > > Try looking at the guy you are throating - he neither intended nor tried. Just swore the oath and ignored it. For the third time, take it up with him. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1597 "2010-10-12T21:46:27Z")
We are taking it up with him. And you’re defending him. That makes you just as tarded, if not more so. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1598 "2010-10-12T21:49:15Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > Hate, hate hate because me, me, me. You will never change the world, you can only hope to change yourself and even that is extremely difficult to do proactively. Trying to break stereotypes over a long time is your best bet. When you quote someone else, it is considered proper to actually quote them. If you remove words, replace them with an ellipsis. Not to do so is fundamentally dishonest. And that is exactly what you have done. > [@Redpill](#): > > Be my guest. Thanks, but I don’t need your permission for anything. > [@Redpill](#): > > I don’t believe you. Are you really arrogant enough to assume that because **you** cannot do something, no one else can? Why if that were the case, there would be no one capable of expounding a well thought out argument. I am more than able to do quality work on things I do not enjoy. > [@Redpill](#): > > For the third time, take it up with him. Are you really this stupid? Apparently so. I repeatedly have “taken it up with him.” I mention it to you because you were talking about the oath. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1599 "2010-10-12T21:50:15Z")
Villa–which arguments have I ignored? I’ve responded to every single one, even when I had to do the arguing part for someone else because all they had the ability to do was to assert. You are making increasingly vociferous assertions that lawyers have sworn to aspire to do pro bono, which is simply not true, as I have demonstrated repeatedly. You just want to yell and cuss instead of actually laying out your argument, and then you say that my actions are reflecting badly on you. Well bub, looks to me like your own actions are reflecting pretty badly on yourself. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1600 "2010-10-12T21:56:43Z")
I will live with you thinking badly of me. I have multiple times said where I think your oath required you to aspire to do pro bono. I am tired of your hand waving on it, and your claims that you have repeatedly demonstrated the opposite. You haven’t. There’s no point in laying it out again. All you will do is the same incorrect analysis, the same hand wave, and the same patently false claim of victory. There’s no point. You aren’t going to change your mind, and every other lawyer in this thread telling you that you are wrong won’t do it. So why should I waste my time? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=79) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=81)