# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1661 "2010-10-13T18:09:10Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > … while restricting access to the legal system on a useful basis to those who can pay for someone enjoying membership in a guild with a legal monopoly is what? > > Assuming you are right, that is a shortcoming in the legal system but coercing pro bono out of lawyers is not the answer. > > It makes it even worse. Then obviously you have a better idea that, for reasons best known to yourself, cannot be publicly discussed. 'Tis a pity indeed that the world will forever be bereft of your Randian superheroesque insight. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1662 "2010-10-13T18:16:38Z")
> [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > Assuming a standard 40 hour work week and two weeks vacation a year (2000 work hours), RR is being asked donate 6.25 days (out of 10 total days) of his vacation time to volunteer. Does that seem fair? It’s only 20 hours. IIRC, he said he bills for $300 dollars an hour. If he fulfils the 20 hours a year, that means his average hourly rate of pay is **only** going to be $297. Makes me weep. Actually, that’s assuming that he actually does have to do Pro Bono for free. **He’s actually being compensated for it**. Which makes this 1600+ post whinefest even more absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Richie\_Incognito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Richie\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richie_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1663 "2010-10-13T18:23:27Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > > > The employer is not compensating him in any way for his time volunteering (no extra pay or vacation time) > > Actually, earlier in the thread it was discovered that his company does bill him for pro bono time; it comes out of their pockets, not his. Try again. I may have missed where this was said by RR. It’s a long thread. If this is true and the employer is simply dictating how they would like RR to use his time on their books, this would change my view of the situation considerably. > [@Bosstone](#): > > Besides, saying that a lawyer’s pro bono time cuts into their per hour salary makes about as much sense as saying that a teacher shouldn’t have to work over the summer or at night after school hours because they only get paid for 9 months and that extra time cuts into their per hour. They’re _expected_ to do that work if they want to be any good at their job, just as a lawyer is expected to do pro bono. It’s figured into the benefits of the title from the start. I’m not really seeing the the connection between volunteering your time to those who cannot afford legal services and marking the papers of the students in your class. One is doing work for your job and the other is doing work outside your job. An actual equivalent would be teachers being asked (required), but not compensated by their employers to spend one week of their summers teaching underpriviledged children. This might do some good. It would also never happen as the unions would be up in arms that their members were being pressured to work for free. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1664 "2010-10-13T18:23:30Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The point is that Rand Rover, knowing full well how the system is set up, nonetheless promised to do something that he has no intention of ever doing. No, I think the system is deliberately and wisely set up to let the lawyers decide according to their own beliefs. Some do it, some don’t and that’s OK. That’s just the way I interpret it. Your views may differ. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1665 "2010-10-13T18:26:29Z")
> [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > It would also never happen as the unions would be up in arms that their members were being pressured to work for free. And I’m sure there were plenty of lawyers who bitched when pro bono became standard. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1666 "2010-10-13T18:29:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then obviously you have a better idea that, for reasons best known to yourself, cannot be publicly discussed. 'Tis a pity indeed that the world will forever be bereft of your Randian superheroesque insight. Better idea is to leave things alone. The legal system, and the world in general is the way it is because the conditions exist to make it such. Everything balances something else. If you wanna change something, try changing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1667 "2010-10-13T18:31:17Z")
And the system includes lawyers doing pro bono work. If you don’t like that, try changing it. Ass. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1668 "2010-10-13T18:39:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And the system includes lawyers doing pro bono work. If you don’t like that, try changing it. > > Ass. System includes lawyers doing pro bono **voluntarily**. I wouldn’t want to change a thing (not that one could by force). Its already fine. (Don’t get mad now) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1669 "2010-10-13T18:43:28Z")
Yes, and therefore lawyers \*not \*doing pro bono voluntarily are abusing and damaging the system, si? ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1670 "2010-10-13T18:51:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, and therefore lawyers \*not \*doing pro bono voluntarily are abusing and damaging the system, si? No, because the system is built to handle some lawyers not doing it. Thats why its voluntary. There are stiff penalties for abuse and damage. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1671 "2010-10-13T19:05:22Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > It’s always amusing when people want someone ELSE to work without compensation. The \*only \*people who would not get compensated if \*\*Rand Rover \*\*were living up to the responsibility he agreed to when he became licensed to practice law in Illinois ARE HIS EMPLOYERS. Who are the ones \*suggesting \*that he perform the incredibly niggardly 20 hours per year (versus the suggested 40 or 50 hours), so it’s pretty safe to say that they’re okay with it. \*\*Rand \*\*doing pro bono work would be treated by his firm in an identical manner to him doing billable client work. > [@Redpill](#): > > Dude, you are just making yourself look worse with your posturing and mockery. You know, just last night I defended you against someone’s idea that you were a \*\*Rand Rover \*\*sock. But now you’re picking up his habit of making ridiculous statements that apply to himself rather than the people they’re directed at. > [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > The employer is not compensating him in any way for his time volunteering (no extra pay or vacation time) Congratulations on paying zero attention to the rest of the thread. **Rand** ’s pro bono time would be treated the same as work billed to a client. The only people taking an income hit would be his employers. > [@Redpill](#): > > No, I think the system is deliberately and wisely set up to let the lawyers decide according to their own beliefs. Some do it, some don’t and that’s OK. No, the system is deliberately set up so that a lawyer who’s \*genuinely swamped \*or \*literally can’t afford \*to take time away from billable client work (i.e., someone who, unlike **Randy** , doesn’t work for a company that treats pro bono hours the same as client billable ones) isn’t punished for their inability to meet the commitment. The rules \*explicitly state \*that the absence of a sanction \*in no way \*mitigates the responsibility, but are instead because the issue is too complex to treat with an ironclad requirement. For approximately the fiftieth time in this thread, I’ll quote the relevant bit for you. [ARTICLE VIII. ILLINOIS RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT OF 2010](http://www.state.il.us/court/SupremeCourt/Rules/Art_VIII/ArtVIII_NEW.htm): > [@](#): > > The absence from the Illinois Rules of a counterpart to ABA Model Rule 6.1 regarding pro bono and public service should not be interpreted as limiting the responsibility of lawyers to render uncompensated service in the public interest. Rather, the rationale is that this responsibility is not appropriate for disciplinary rules because it is not possible to articulate an appropriate disciplinary standard regarding pro bono and public service. You know, from the preamble. That pesky bit of the rules that tells you HOW THE FUCKING RULES SHOULD BE READ. You don’t get to make up your own interpretation when the real meaning is hitting you over the fucking head. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1672 "2010-10-13T19:24:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You know, just last night I defended you against someone’s idea that you were a \*\*Rand Rover \*\*sock. I can defend myself, but thanks if you did. > [@](#): > > The absence from the Illinois Rules of a counterpart to ABA Model Rule 6.1 regarding pro bono and public service should not be interpreted as limiting the responsibility of lawyers to render uncompensated service in the public interest. Rather, the rationale is that this responsibility is not appropriate for disciplinary rules because it is not possible to articulate an appropriate disciplinary standard regarding pro bono and public service. Even by these standards the worst we can call **RR** is irresponsible, no more. You guys act like he committed crimes against humanity, compared to your own acts. > [@](#): > > You know, from the preamble. That pesky bit of the rules that tells you HOW THE FUCKING RULES SHOULD BE READ. You don’t get to make up your own interpretation when the real meaning is hitting you over the fucking head. That’s just what I was gonna say to you (but without the cussing) ---
**Author:** ![Richie\_Incognito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Richie\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richie_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1673 "2010-10-13T19:29:21Z")
[QUOTE=Shot From Guns;13021285 Congratulations on paying zero attention to the rest of the thread. **Rand** ’s pro bono time would be treated the same as work billed to a client. The only people taking an income hit would be his employers. [/QUOTE] Can someone point me in the direction of where RR stated this? (again, it’s a very long thread) I’m about 10 pages in and can’t find anything like this. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1674 "2010-10-13T19:35:28Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > I can defend myself, but thanks if you did. It was in private, not in a thread. Mostly because I don’t think \*\*Randy \*\*is stupid enough or that we’re lucky enough for him to hand us a golden ticket to finally get his ass kicked off this board. > [@](#): > > Even by these standards the worst we can call **RR** is irresponsible, no more. Yeah, and we just want him to own up to the fact that he’s a fucking leech. If he’d simply say, “Yeah, I have the responsibility, and I don’t fucking care–my word means nothing to me,” we’d let it be. > [@](#): > > That’s just what I was gonna say to you (but without the cussing) Really? Well, I backed \*mine \*up with a fucking cite that says \*exactly \*what I’m claiming. Where’s your cite that says the Illinois Supreme Court thinks that lawyers should only do pro bono work if it gives them the warm fuzzies? ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1675 "2010-10-13T19:45:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Mostly because I don’t think \*\*Randy \*\*is stupid enough or that we’re lucky enough for him to hand us a golden ticket to finally get his ass kicked off this board. Why do you fear him? > [@](#): > > Yeah, and we just want him to own up to the fact that he’s a fucking leech. If he’d simply say, “Yeah, I have the responsibility, and I don’t fucking care–my word means nothing to me,” we’d let it be. How did it work out for you? > [@](#): > > Really? Well, I backed \*mine \*up with a fucking cite that says \*exactly \*what I’m claiming. Where’s your cite that says the Illinois Supreme Court thinks that lawyers should only do pro bono work if it gives them the warm fuzzies? You cite is my cite. You interpret it one way, I interpret it another way. I use the words in the rule, you replace them with insults and profanities. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1676 "2010-10-13T19:52:08Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > Why do you fear him? Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1677 "2010-10-13T19:54:42Z")
Why would we want \*\*Randy \*\*kicked off the board? We’d lose all that entertainment value, and he’d \*still \*be out there in the real world, grinding away in his cubicle and telling himself he’s really smarter and more principled than the rest of the putzes in the world, wasting their time volunteering to help their inferiors. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1678 "2010-10-13T19:56:11Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > You cite is my cite. You interpret it one way, I interpret it another way. I use the words in the rule, you replace them with insults and profanities. That you interpret it as meaning something completely different to the plain meaning of the text is an indication that your powers of statutory construction are somewhat weak. I doubt you have even read it. Your posting style, your willingness to accuse others of lying, then standing back with the whole Rodney King “can’t we all just get along” routine, your general attitude seems to me like you thoguht it would be a jolly wheeze to join in to a long thread and deliberately attempt to annoy people. You’ve not made a single new contribution - in fact, you’ve not made a signle contribution other than say “ **RandRover** is right.” In fact, you have even attempted to put his ‘arguments’ forward, merely said they are right. Plain and simple, you’re a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1679 "2010-10-13T19:56:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Why would we want \*\*Randy \*\*kicked off the board? We’d lose all that entertainment value, and he’d \*still \*be out there in the real world, grinding away in his cubicle and telling himself he’s really smarter and more principled than the rest of the putzes in the world, wasting their time volunteering to help their inferiors. Honestly, I don’t give a damn what he’s like in the real world. People talk shit on the interwebbernets all the time but rarely back it up. I’m pretty sure he just amps things up to tweak the “liberal douches,” and unfortunately he’s got a pretty good idea of what makes us bark. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1680 "2010-10-13T20:06:20Z")
> [@villa](#): > > That you interpret it as meaning something completely different to the plain meaning of the text is an indication that your powers of statutory construction are somewhat weak. The plain meaning leads us to conclude **RR** as being irresponsible. Unless you want it to mean something else, as I’m sure you do in the courtroom. > [@](#): > > I doubt you have even read it. Your posting style, your willingness to accuse others of lying, then standing back with the whole Rodney King “can’t we all just get along” routine, your general attitude seems to me like you thoguht it would be a jolly wheeze to join in to a long thread and deliberately attempt to annoy people. You’ve not made a single new contribution - in fact, you’ve not made a signle contribution other than say “ **RandRover** is right.” In fact, you have even attempted to put his ‘arguments’ forward, merely said they are right. > > Plain and simple, you’re a troll. Ah, the old annoying = troll routine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=85)