# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 85
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1681 "2010-10-13T21:26:09Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > When you quote someone else, it is considered proper to actually quote them. If you remove words, replace them with an ellipsis. Not to do so is fundamentally dishonest. > > I will extract whatever I feel you are most wrong about and needs to be talked about. I won’t put ellipsis because you are no Mark Twain. No you will not. [QUOTE=Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit: read this before posting] Quoting: do not alter words within quote tags beyond fair usage standards Do not change quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards. If you delete material, use either ellipses or descriptive tags (e.g., \, [material deleted], etc.) to indicate you’ve done so. To add non-editorial explanatory material, use square brackets, which means things like [sic] or replacing a pronoun to make a partial quote clearer. If you add formatting for emphasis, please indicate you’ve done so, either in square brackets within the quote or immediately after the quote. Quote tags are for actual quotes only - don’t use them to paraphrase another’s argument or make a joke. [/QUOTE] > **[Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit: read this before posting](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985)** > > The BBQ Pit is the forum for rants about the outside world or quarrels between posters - often the first turns into the second. Although the standards of discourse are looser than in the other forums, the Pit is NOT a free-for-all - you don’t have to... No warning issued, but please don’t do this again. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1682 "2010-10-13T21:57:02Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > The plain meaning leads us to conclude **RR** as being irresponsible. Unless you want it to mean something else, as I’m sure you do in the courtroom. Irresponsible and in violation of his oath. But you already made clear that obedience to oaths isn’t something you find important. And I thought you doubted I was a lawyer? Make you freaking mind up. > [@Redpill](#): > > Ah, the old annoying = troll routine. No sparky, you have your causation all confused… It’s the old troll = annoying routine. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1683 "2010-10-13T22:04:00Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > Why do you fear him? Do you fear the mosquito that you slap when it’s buzzing around your face? > [@](#): > > You cite is my cite. You interpret it one way, I interpret it another way. My “interpretation” is the literal meaning of the sentences. Your “interpretation” is only valid if you change the meaning of almost every word. You could probably leave the articles alone, though. > [@Gfactor](#): > > No you will not. I believe the phrase to describe what just happened here is “fucking owned.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1684 "2010-10-13T22:20:14Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > It’s only 20 hours. IIRC, he said he bills for $300 dollars an hour. If he fulfils the 20 hours a year, that means his average hourly rate of pay is **only** going to be $297. Makes me weep. Actually, that’s assuming that he actually does have to do Pro Bono for free. **He’s actually being compensated for it**. Which makes this 1600+ post whinefest even more absurd. Also considering that **Rand** at this point has invested about $3,500 worth\* of his extremely valuable time to this thread. \*Estimate based on 350+ posts @ 2 minutes/post (including time spent reading other posts). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1685 "2010-10-13T22:36:13Z")
Here’s a relevant question: Say Bob enters into a nonrecourse loan to buy a house. The loan agreement provides in relevant part as follows: 1. “Bob agrees to repay the loan under the terms of this Loan Agreement.” 2. “If Bob fails to make a required payment under this Loan Agreement, the Lender’s sole recourse is to foreclose on Bob’s house.” Later on, Bob decides that the value of his house is less than the loan balance, so he stops paying on the loan and waits for the foreclosure to occur. Has Bob failed to do something he swore to do? ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1686 "2010-10-13T22:40:44Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Irresponsible and in violation of his oath. But you already made clear that obedience to oaths isn’t something you find important. Sorry, there are degrees of seriousness of a violation. This one only extends till him failing to aspire and therefore him not being responsible. > [@](#): > > And I thought you doubted I was a lawyer? Make you freaking mind up. My mind made up about your competence as a lawyer but if I told you, you’d be offended. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1687 "2010-10-13T22:44:42Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Do you fear the mosquito that you slap when it’s buzzing around your face? If you fear too much, you might end up slapping your own face. > [@](#): > > My “interpretation” is the literal meaning of the sentences. Your “interpretation” is only valid if you change the meaning of almost every word. I disagree. I didn’t change words, you did. Go back and check my interpretation vs yours. > [@Gfactor](#): > > I believe the phrase to describe what just happened here is “fucking owned.” At this point you’ll take anything eh? ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1688 "2010-10-13T22:50:13Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > > [@Redpill](#): > > > > I will extract whatever I feel you are most wrong about and needs to be talked about. I won’t put ellipsis because you are no Mark Twain. > > No you will not. > > [QUOTE=Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit: read this before posting] > Quoting: do not alter words within quote tags beyond fair usage standards > > Do not change quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards. If you delete material, use either ellipses or descriptive tags (e.g., \, [material deleted], etc.) to indicate you’ve done so. To add non-editorial explanatory material, use square brackets, which means things like [sic] or replacing a pronoun to make a partial quote clearer. If you add formatting for emphasis, please indicate you’ve done so, either in square brackets within the quote or immediately after the quote. Quote tags are for actual quotes only - don’t use them to paraphrase another’s argument or make a joke. > **[Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit: read this before posting](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985)** > > The BBQ Pit is the forum for rants about the outside world or quarrels between posters - often the first turns into the second. Although the standards of discourse are looser than in the other forums, the Pit is NOT a free-for-all - you don’t have to... No warning issued, but please don’t do this again. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator [/QUOTE] I didn’t alter words. That’s not my style. I only sniped within fair use so as not to change meaning but highlight what part of the post I’m addressing but I’m sure you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1689 "2010-10-13T22:59:46Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@pinkyvee](#): > > > > It’s always amusing when people want someone ELSE to work without compensation. > > The \*only \*people who would not get compensated if \*\*Rand Rover \*\*were living up to the responsibility he agreed to when he became licensed to practice law in Illinois ARE HIS EMPLOYERS. Who are the ones \*suggesting \*that he perform the incredibly niggardly 20 hours per year (versus the suggested 40 or 50 hours), so it’s pretty safe to say that they’re okay with it. \*\*Rand \*\*doing pro bono work would be treated by his firm in an identical manner to him doing billable client work. > > You know, just last night I defended you against someone’s idea that you were a \*\*Rand Rover \*\*sock. But now you’re picking up his habit of making ridiculous statements that apply to himself rather than the people they’re directed at. > > Congratulations on paying zero attention to the rest of the thread. **Rand** ’s pro bono time would be treated the same as work billed to a client. The only people taking an income hit would be his employers. > > No, the system is deliberately set up so that a lawyer who’s \*genuinely swamped \*or \*literally can’t afford \*to take time away from billable client work (i.e., someone who, unlike **Randy** , doesn’t work for a company that treats pro bono hours the same as client billable ones) isn’t punished for their inability to meet the commitment. The rules \*explicitly state \*that the absence of a sanction \*in no way \*mitigates the responsibility, but are instead because the issue is too complex to treat with an ironclad requirement. For approximately the fiftieth time in this thread, I’ll quote the relevant bit for you. > > [ARTICLE VIII. ILLINOIS RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT OF 2010](http://www.state.il.us/court/SupremeCourt/Rules/Art_VIII/ArtVIII_NEW.htm): > > > [@](#): > > > > The absence from the Illinois Rules of a counterpart to ABA Model Rule 6.1 regarding pro bono and public service should not be interpreted as limiting the responsibility of lawyers to render uncompensated service in the public interest. Rather, the rationale is that this responsibility is not appropriate for disciplinary rules because it is not possible to articulate an appropriate disciplinary standard regarding pro bono and public service. > > You know, from the preamble. That pesky bit of the rules that tells you HOW THE FUCKING RULES SHOULD BE READ. You don’t get to make up your own interpretation when the real meaning is hitting you over the fucking head. SFG, the problem is that you are reading those words with a head full of woo. You think that a moral obligation is a real thing that exists in the real world, so when you read those words you stop there and get all shouty (“it says you have a responsibility!!! So that means you have a responsibility!!! I don’t need to think any further than that!!!”). But if you didn’t have a head full of woo and were able to think further than that, you’d realize that a lawyer can still comply with the rules even if they don’t aspire to do pro bono. Which means that the responsibility referred to in te preamble isn’t an actual obligation (like a driver’s obligation to not speed or a merchant’s obligation to honor a contract). It’s just a moral obligation, which is just a statement of preference. So it just means that enough people with the power to change what the preamble says got those words inserted. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1690 "2010-10-13T23:11:46Z")
Nobody’s buying it but your Elmo doll, you tragic little man. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1691 "2010-10-14T02:49:11Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > I didn’t alter words. That’s not my style. I only sniped within fair use so as not to change meaning but highlight what part of the post I’m addressing but I’m sure you knew that. I’m sure he did, considering the fact that he was cautioning you nor for changing words, but for not noting that you had elided the text. Allow me to direct your attention to the relevant portion of the rules quoted by **Gfactor** : > [@Ed Zotti](#): > > Do not change quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards. _**If you delete material, use either ellipses or descriptive tags (e.g., \, [material deleted], etc.) to indicate you’ve done so.**_ Emphasis mine, naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1692 "2010-10-14T03:50:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Redpill](#): > > > > I didn’t alter words. That’s not my style. I only sniped within fair use so as not to change meaning but highlight what part of the post I’m addressing but I’m sure you knew that. > > I’m sure he did, considering the fact that he was cautioning you nor for changing words, but for not noting that you had elided the text. Allow me to direct your attention to the relevant portion of the rules quoted by **Gfactor** : > > > [@Ed Zotti](#): > > > > Do not change quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards. _**If you delete material, use either ellipses or descriptive tags (e.g., \, [material deleted], etc.) to indicate you’ve done so.**_ > > Emphasis mine, naturally. Seems a bit pedantic to me but sure thing. Here are some extra dots for posts 1549 and 1601 by PRR and SFG respectively for starters. … … … … ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1693 "2010-10-14T12:06:19Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Here’s a relevant question: > > Say Bob enters into a nonrecourse loan to buy a house. The loan agreement provides in relevant part as follows: > > 1. “Bob agrees to repay the loan under the terms of this Loan Agreement.” > > 2. “If Bob fails to make a required payment under this Loan Agreement, the Lender’s sole recourse is to foreclose on Bob’s house.” > > Later on, Bob decides that the value of his house is less than the loan balance, so he stops paying on the loan and waits for the foreclosure to occur. > > Has Bob failed to do something he swore to do? That you consider contractual obligations and obligations entered into as a result of an oath to be comparable is telling, especially given the nature of pro bono work. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1694 "2010-10-14T12:33:43Z")
What’s your point, villa? An oath is just a promise, exactly like a promise that supports a contract. Oh tight, you believe in woo, such as the separate real-world existence of “ethical obligations.” I imagine you think the lawyer’s oath is some sacred woo bond between a lawyer and society, complete with heralds of angels blowing horns in the moral realm every time a lawyer gets his wings. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1695 "2010-10-14T14:57:05Z")
Every time you post here, **Rand** , my mental image of you as a greasy fat man with his eyes crossed rubbing his finger up and down over his lips as he blows a raspberry gets stronger and stronger. And, to be honest, that form of expression would be more articulate than what you’re spewing out here. You create strawmen and constantly move the goalposts. Why should any of us keep talking to you? Ever? About anything? Especially since you keep raping your daughter unashamedly, which is really inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1696 "2010-10-14T18:39:38Z")
Please demonstrate how I’ve created strawmen and moved the goalposts. I don’t think I’ve done either. You just simply don’t understand what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1697 "2010-10-14T18:53:18Z")
Pick any post of yours in this thread at random and it should do the trick. I understand perfectly well what you’re saying. You’re just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1698 "2010-10-14T19:11:50Z")
IOW, you got got nothin’. It’s very easy for you to say I’m doing that, but it’s telling when you won’t back up what you are saying. Throughout this thread I have been very clear about what I’m saying, and I’ve repeated my analysis of the issue. You haven’t provided any analysis of your own–you’ve simply quoted the rules and said nasty things about me and my daughter. And then you decided I’m using strawmen and moving goalposts even though you can’t support those asertions. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1699 "2010-10-14T19:46:46Z")
You know what, I was actually about to go and start quoting posts, starting with your OP. But then I remembered that I’m talking to you, and you’re not about to start listening to logic or evidence now. So I think I’ll just save my time and borrow a play from your book: I have demonstrated that you are a selfish liar who continually twists everything to meet his own skewed version of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1700 "2010-10-14T20:10:04Z")
As if that post you were about to write would contain either logic or evidence . . . It would just be quoting and loud assertion, which is all you seem capable of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=84) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=86)