# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1701 "2010-10-14T20:18:50Z")
Blah, blah, blah. Since we’re all so wrong, why don’t you show us up and leave? I promise no one worthwhile will miss you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1702 "2010-10-14T20:22:10Z")
Could it be that he secretly craves our acclaim, being a Randian uebermensch and all that? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1703 "2010-10-14T20:36:36Z")
I like fighting ignorance, and I found the motherlode at the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1704 "2010-10-14T21:28:50Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What’s your point, villa? An oath is just a promise, exactly like a promise that supports a contract. > > Oh tight, you believe in woo, such as the separate real-world existence of “ethical obligations.” I imagine you think the lawyer’s oath is some sacred woo bond between a lawyer and society, complete with heralds of angels blowing horns in the moral realm every time a lawyer gets his wings. My point is that a contract is simply different. I think oaths are to an extent “sacred” though I would rather not use the word because of religious overtones. It’s about honor. My word is my bond. Not because being known as a person who breaks his word would be bad for me financially (though it would) but because it is my word. Obviously we think differently on this one. I will, however, point out that the general trend is in error on one point here. Assuming **RandRover** is a partner, he isn’t paid for pro bono in the same way that I am. Partners’ pay is based on firm profitability, and so if the hours he would do pro bono would reduce his billable hours, then his pay would be (minimally) lower. Also any expenses of pro bono representation would reduce the firm’s profits, and therefore reduce (minimally) his pay. But that is all completely tangential to the point. It’s also ignoring the benefits that accrue to law firms from performing pro bono. They might be (and probably are) sufficient to offset any costs, therefore meaning doing pro bono would increase his compensation. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1705 "2010-10-14T21:51:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Could it be that he secretly craves our acclaim, being a Randian uebermensch and all that? Of course he does. Why is that even a question? He’s a child saying “No!” to everything so that mommy and daddy pay attention to him. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I like fighting ignorance, and I found the motherlode at the SDMB. Why don’t you go hang out with the Freepers? They’d love to have you, and there’s much more ignorance there. > [@villa](#): > > It’s also ignoring the benefits that accrue to law firms from performing pro bono. Indeed. If everyone at **Rand** ’s firm declined to live up to their oaths, I have no doubt that it would reflect very poorly on them and they’d lose business. So, really, he’s just not fucking himself over, but everyone else he works with. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1706 "2010-10-14T22:02:14Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Indeed. If everyone at **Rand** ’s firm declined to live up to their oaths, I have no doubt that it would reflect very poorly on them and they’d lose business. So, really, he’s just not fucking himself over, but everyone else he works with. He Kant imagine anyone else skipping out, so it’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1707 "2010-10-14T22:55:48Z")
I fully live up to my oath. I do everything I (and every other lawyer) swore to do. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1708 "2010-10-14T23:02:47Z")
Except aspire to do pro bono work. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1709 "2010-10-14T23:23:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Except aspire to do pro bono work. Because its voluntary. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1710 "2010-10-14T23:32:39Z")
Again, you and he both have understandings of the meaning of “oath” that are inconsistent with being officers of the court. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1711 "2010-10-14T23:40:30Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Indeed. If everyone at **Rand** ’s firm declined to live up to their oaths, I have no doubt that it would reflect very poorly on them and they’d lose business. So, really, he’s just not fucking himself over, but everyone else he works with. Things that reflect poorly and harm business are already mandatory and are aggressively enforced, pro bono is not one of them but you can fantasize if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1712 "2010-10-14T23:43:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Again, you and he both have understandings of the meaning of “oath” that are inconsistent with being officers of the court. The oath allows for pro bono to be the responsibility of the lawyer to aspire to. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1713 "2010-10-14T23:55:26Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > Again, you and he both have understandings of the meaning of “oath” that are inconsistent with being officers of the court. > > The oath allows for pro bono to be the responsibility of the lawyer to aspire to. The oath takes for granted that lawyers will understand that “should aspire” means “should aspire.” The oath is flawed, and should clearly be dumbed down further so that even the lowest-common-denominator attorneys like **Rand Rover** don’t waste hundreds of billable (or even pro bono!) hours arguing that the rules don’t apply to them because the courtroom flag doesn’t have a gold fringe on it. Isn’t it time he took you for a walk? I know you lapdogs have such tiny bladders… ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1714 "2010-10-15T00:01:18Z")
I still maintain that **Redpill** ’s bladder is within **Rand Rover** ’s body. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1715 "2010-10-15T00:07:25Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The oath is flawed, and should clearly be dumbed down further so that even the lowest-common-denominator attorneys like **Rand Rover** don’t waste hundreds of billable (or even pro bono!) hours arguing that the rules don’t apply to them because the courtroom flag doesn’t have a gold fringe on it. The oath is already perfect and penned by someone smarter than you understands the nature of voluntary work. > [@](#): > > Isn’t it time he took you for a walk? I know you lapdogs have such tiny bladders… Its OK to lose an argument with grace. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1716 "2010-10-15T00:27:34Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > The oath is already perfect and penned by someone smarter than you understands the nature of voluntary work. See, I just don’t buy that. If it were truly voluntary, then wouldn’t it read something more like “pro bono work is entirely voluntary and may be accepted at the attorney’s sole discretion”? That’s qualitatively different from “every attorney has a responsibility to perform pro bono work and should aspire to complete at least 50 hours a year; the lack of a punishment does not diminish this responsibility.” And, it should be noted, the lack of a punishment is not because they are trying to allow for people who don’t _want_ to do it, they’re allowing for people who _can’t_ do it. All **Rand** is doing is exploiting a unfortunately big loophole that allows shirkers to shirk without penalty. Good for him, the snake. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1717 "2010-10-15T00:45:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I like fighting ignorance, and I found the motherlode at the SDMB. Custer enjoyed fighting Indians, too, and was overjoyed to find that big encampment of Sioux. **Rand** , you’re crammed so full of arrows at this point you make a porcupine look bald.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1718 "2010-10-15T00:53:30Z")
Very good point. > [@Bosstone](#): > > See, I just don’t buy that. If it were truly voluntary, then wouldn’t it read something more like “pro bono work is entirely voluntary and may be accepted at the attorney’s sole discretion”? That’s qualitatively different from “every attorney has a responsibility to perform pro bono work and should aspire to complete at least 50 hours a year; the lack of a punishment does not diminish this responsibility.” They don’t want do diminish the importance of pro bono work. (A good thing for people like me) Pro bono is important to society and there is a “responsibility”, therefore any lawyer who doesn’t do it is not being “responsible” in the area of pro bono, but the level of coercion stops there. Because anymore would be inappropriate and change the nature of the voluntary act. A subtle but important difference. > [@](#): > > And, it should be noted, the lack of a punishment is not because they are trying to allow for people who don’t _want_ to do it, they’re allowing for people who _can’t_ do it. Can’t includes not wanting to do it. Not wanting to do it is the biggest can’t in a democracy. > [@](#): > > All **Rand** is doing is exploiting a unfortunately big loophole that allows shirkers to shirk without penalty. Good for him, the snake. Belief in legal loopholes is a bit simple minded. Everything is there because it works. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1719 "2010-10-15T01:06:16Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > Belief in legal loopholes is a bit simple minded. Everything is there because it works. Mostly it’s there because it never occurred to anyone back in the 19th Century/1950s/Whenever the legislation was drafted that someone would try and do [Loophole activity]. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/1720 "2010-10-15T01:08:33Z")
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