# Pro bono bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132 "2010-09-09T02:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/161 "2010-09-09T19:34:53Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Is RR the type of lawyer who represents clients in court and argues their cases? Or is he more of a desk jockey who serves as an extra body to make his firm look more impressive? He doesn’t seem to show much of the eloquence I would expect from an effective lawyer, and he’s not too good at responding to allegations brought up by the SDMB chorus. I also highly doubt his superiors are as impressed by his little Rover as he seems to think. So who does he work for, Dewey Cheatum and Howe? No, [**Dewey Cheatem Undhow**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) is a now-inactive lawyer/SDMB member who was far more lucid and honorable than Randy has any pretensions of being. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/162 "2010-09-09T19:48:36Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > You are required to _report_ the amount of pro bono work you [del]did[/del] didn’t do, though, and there are penalties for failure to do so. > > Are you sure? I can’t chose not to report hours I work? Not in Maryland. That said, the annual reporting requirement isn’t particularly onerous - it’s not as if they require a breakdown of every place you’ve done pro bono service. The form just asks you how many hours you’ve worked in total. And realistically, I believe there’s an understanding that you might forget about some of the hours you’ve worked, and under-count. The idea isn’t to catch anyone out - it’s really just to shame those attorneys who’ve done _no_ pro bono service at all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/163 "2010-09-09T19:51:57Z")
I suspect it’s more so the bar association can say, “our members have devoted XX,XXX hours of time to providing free legal aid to their communities” in its annual report. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/164 "2010-09-09T19:54:06Z")
I am one who appreciates the pro bono work that attorneys do. My son has a case which is being done pro bono; it has dragged on for two years and it would have been quite a hardship for him to have paid attorney’s fees. So here’s a big THANK YOU to those who do pro bono work. I appreciate you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/165 "2010-09-09T19:57:41Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Not in Maryland. That said, the annual reporting requirement isn’t particularly onerous - it’s not as if they require a breakdown of every place you’ve done pro bono service. The form just asks you how many hours you’ve worked in total. And realistically, I believe there’s an understanding that you might forget about some of the hours you’ve worked, and under-count. The idea isn’t to catch anyone out - it’s really just to shame those attorneys who’ve done _no_ pro bono service at all. I’m wondering if my firm takes care of that. I am barred in DC & the Commonwealth of Virginia, and have never reported that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/166 "2010-09-09T19:59:23Z")
**Bricker** said you don’t have that rule in VA on the previous page. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/167 "2010-09-09T19:59:30Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > I am one who appreciates the pro bono work that attorneys do. My son has a case which is being done pro bono; it has dragged on for two years and it would have been quite a hardship for him to have paid attorney’s fees. > > So here’s a big THANK YOU to those who do pro bono work. I appreciate you. > > 🙂 Well thank you. Always like a satisfied client! But the benefit totally flows both ways. It counts as billable for me (except for the stuff I do that has no billing number because it is not firm approved as such), I get great experience, it keeps me sane, and I get to meet wonderful and interesting people and help them. Oh and my asylum guy gave me a watch. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![dmatsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@dmatsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dmatsch)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/168 "2010-09-09T20:00:55Z")
yeah. because the law and fair legal representation should only be available to those who can pay you your $100/hr. asshole ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/169 "2010-09-09T20:01:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I suspect it’s more so the bar association can say, “our members have devoted XX,XXX hours of time to providing free legal aid to their communities” in its annual report. Probably part of it as well, yah. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/170 "2010-09-09T20:12:28Z")
> [@dmatsch](#): > > yeah. because the law and fair legal representation should only be available to those who can pay you your $100/hr. > > asshole Where the hell do you find lawyers who only charge $100/hr.? My time costs nearly that much, and I’m not a paralegal and not even in a fee-intensive field. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/171 "2010-09-09T20:13:30Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > You are still missing the critical distinction between "should aspire"and “must aspire.” Also, the title of the ABA rule is "VOLUNTARY pro bono publico service. Finally, you aren’t grasping the importance of the fact that nothing bad happens to a lawyer that never does any pro bono work and doesn’t even “try to” (and I would know)–that shows that doing pro bono is voluntary and not required. > > Is your only standard for ethical conduct “that which does not lead to bad things happening to me?” Would it be ethical for me to steal candy from infants, if I could be reliably assured that no harm would befall me from so doing? The fact that lawyers aren’t punished for failing to meet their pro bono requirement is absolutely meaningless with regard to the question of whether or not pro bono service is an _ethical_ obligation. When you say “ethical obligation,” do you mean (1) an obligation imposed by the ethics rules or (2) an obligation imposed by some incorporeal general notion of right and wrong? If you mean 1, you are dead wrong. If you mean 2, then it’s fine if you think that I have an ethical obligation to so pro bono, but I happen to disagree, and that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/172 "2010-09-09T20:22:00Z")
> [@dmatsch](#): > > yeah. because the law and fair legal representation should only be available to those who can pay you your $100/hr. > > asshole $100 would get you about 9 minutes, bub. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/173 "2010-09-09T20:23:22Z")
Includes a happy ending, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/174 "2010-09-09T20:24:32Z")
Trying for the third time: Does your firm charge your pro bono work to your required billable hours? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/175 "2010-09-09T20:28:54Z")
In Libertaria, you do have choices. 1. Deal with it. 2. Get a job somewhere else. 3. Go into another line of work There are probably other choices too. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/176 "2010-09-09T20:33:33Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > $100 would get you about 9 minutes, bub. You’re so awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/177 "2010-09-09T20:42:29Z")
Hello Again–yes, I think. I obviously haven’t looked that deeply into the policy. SteveG1–you forgot 4. Bitch about it on the internet. I suppose 4 is really just a special instance of 1. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/178 "2010-09-09T20:52:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Hello Again–yes, I think. I obviously haven’t looked that deeply into the policy. So, what you’re saying is a) You are paid in full for your time (actually a bit more, since not every hour you work is billable, but every pro bono hour is) b) Your employer has the right to direct your work during working hours within legal limits (this is virtually the definition of an employee) as a result, c) absolutely nothing is being stolen from you The only thing your employer’s decree affects is a right you never had to begin with: your right to unlilaterally refuse assignments without repercussions Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/179 "2010-09-09T20:55:19Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > > Is your only standard for ethical conduct “that which does not lead to bad things happening to me?” Would it be ethical for me to steal candy from infants, if I could be reliably assured that no harm would befall me from so doing? The fact that lawyers aren’t punished for failing to meet their pro bono requirement is absolutely meaningless with regard to the question of whether or not pro bono service is an _ethical_ obligation. > > When you say “ethical obligation,” do you mean (1) an obligation imposed by the ethics rules or (2) an obligation imposed by some incorporeal general notion of right and wrong? If you mean 1, you are dead wrong. If you mean 2, then it’s fine if you think that I have an ethical obligation to so pro bono, but I happen to disagree, and that’s OK. I mean both. If it’s in the professional conduct rules (formerly known, tellingly, as the ethics rules), then you have an ethical obligation to do it. When the state bar puts something in the professional conduct rules, it’s telling you “_This_ is how we expect you, at a bare minimum, to comport yourself as a lawyer.” The fact that the state bar isn’t willing to punish you for failing to live up to this obligation isn’t relevant - not all adult obligations are enforced by threat of punishment. The obligation imposed by the ethics rules also squares nicely with what you describe as “some incorporeal general notion of right and wrong.” As I mentioned in an earlier post, Western civilization has recognized that lawyers have special and higher duties towards the public since at least the days of ancient Rome. We’re trained in the machinery of civilization itself, physicians to the body politic - and we can no more _ignore_ our pro bono obligations than a physician could walk past a man suffering a heart attack. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132/180 "2010-09-09T20:58:19Z")
Incorrect. I’m not an employee. But thanks for playing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-bono-bullshit/553132.md?page=10)