# Pro-choice "art" from Yale student... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735 "2008-04-17T15:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/161 "2008-04-22T03:58:45Z")
[QUOTE=NajaNivea] > [@Magiver](#): > > As I stated before, it is as much art as taking a dump. You are correct, and that’s been done too, not quite fifty years ago. [/QUOTE] Conceptually done, anyway. Turns out there wasn’t any more [poo](http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/art/2007/06/shit_manzonis_work_doesnt_do_w.html) in those cans than there was pee in Duchamp’s urinal. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/162 "2008-04-22T04:16:42Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Conceptually done, anyway. Turns out there wasn’t any more [poo](http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/art/2007/06/shit_manzonis_work_doesnt_do_w.html) in those cans than there was pee in Duchamp’s urinal. [/QUOTE] GG Allin threw real poo at his audience though! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/163 "2008-04-22T13:27:04Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] GG Allin threw real poo at his audience though! [/QUOTE] This is one of those cases where I’d definitely prefer sham-poo. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/164 "2008-04-22T14:54:06Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] The joke will be on her when she’s infertile and develops some nasty dysfunctions. [/QUOTE] Then she’ll be eligible for a Darwin Award. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/165 "2008-04-22T15:32:37Z")
The really sad thing is that she’ll actually get a degree in art from Yale. I’m curious as to whether, say, math students still get a degree, even though they can’t really do any math, but just “express themselves” with numbers and symbols. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/166 "2008-04-22T16:27:48Z")
It’s not like her degree is ONLY dependent on this piece–it may not have been done for a class at all! And she undoubtably has art history, humanities and science classes she has to pass too. As well, most art classes have certain assignments for you to complete, you can’t just “pursue your vision”–except for the later studio classes, but you still get graded for them. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/167 "2008-04-22T18:17:05Z")
Just for posterity, and the Archives’, sake… > **[Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News Video](https://www.foxnews.com/)** > > Breaking News, Latest News and Current News from FOXNews.com. Breaking news and video. Latest Current News: U.S., World, Entertainment, Health, Business, Technology, Politics, Sports. > [@](#): > > Yale Pulls Student’s ‘Abortion Art’ Project From Exhibit Opening > > Tuesday, April 22, 2008 > > By Catherine Donaldson-Evans > > Yale University followed through on its warning Tuesday and banned a student’s ‘abortion art’ project from the opening of a campus exhibit after she continued to deny that she fabricated shocking stories of multiple inseminations and self-induced miscarriages. > > \< snip \> > > Yale officials warned that unless the art major agreed to say in writing that she hadn’t told the truth about artificially inseminating herself and then taking herbal drugs to try to induce miscarriages, they’d yank her piece from the student exhibit, which opened Tuesday morning and closes May 1. > > \< snip \> > > In a column published in Friday’s Daily News, Shvarts stood by her allegations that she artificially inseminated herself using sperm donors whose identities she claimed to be protecting, then took herbal drugs to induce possible miscarriages in her bathtub. > > Though the college senior said she never knew whether she was pregnant, she says she collected blood around the time of her period after she ingested the herbs and then spread it onto hundreds of feet of plastic that she wrapped around a large cube, which would be hung from the ceiling… > > \< snip \> > > The university has insisted Shvarts told school administrators in interviews with them that her stories weren’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/168 "2008-04-22T18:46:34Z")
Yale seems to really be trying to make her say it wasn’t true. Obviously, even if she did do it, we have no clue if she was really pregnant. But…perhaps she did do it? Yale just seems to be trying a BIT too hard to cover it up… ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/169 "2008-04-22T18:48:26Z")
There are two possibilities here - either she did do it and Yale’s doing a coverup, to save face or something, or she didn’t do it, her advisor and suchlike knows she didn’t do it, and she’s claiming she did to get attention. Given what she has already done to get attention, I’d say the second is more likely, but who knows. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/170 "2008-04-22T19:56:55Z")
I believe she really did it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/171 "2008-04-22T21:10:58Z")
As if _pour epate les bourgeoisie_ weren’t the most over-done concept in art… Regards, Le Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/172 "2008-04-22T21:42:31Z")
So… if I go “meh” to this performance art, does it rate a failed grade? There are so many folks trying to “shock” the world, that each individual action is fading into background noise, now. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/173 "2008-04-24T06:32:45Z")
So now to the second part of the debate- should the project have been banned? I have no question that the girl is at least a sh\*t-stirrer (as I guess I also am by bringing the topic here 😃 ), whether her project is real or fictional. I am not as sure about banning the project. The best reason for banning it that I can see is her use of “medical waste” in a non-hygenic context. Btw, apparently her faculty advisor has been disciplined also. ---
**Author:** ![as\_u\_wish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@as\_u\_wish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/as_u_wish)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/174 "2008-04-24T12:01:12Z")
Regarding her grade, If she fulfilled the assignment criteria (do something cutting edge, shock the public), then she should be graded appropriately. Not knowing what her instructor assigned, I don’t feel qualified to judge. The student should not be held responsible for meeting the criteria for a bad assignment. Regarding banning: IMHO banning art simply encourages it, giving it an attention level out of proportion to its quality. Rather like feeding a troll. The appropriate response to bad art is to ignore it. She should be mocked, humiliated, and scorned by serious artists. This is much more effective than banning, which implies credibility. Oh, look, bad art. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/175 "2008-04-24T12:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=as\_u\_wish] Regarding banning: IMHO banning art simply encourages it, giving it an attention level out of proportion to its quality. Rather like feeding a troll. The appropriate response to bad art is to ignore it. She should be mocked, humiliated, and scorned by serious artists. This is much more effective than banning, which implies credibility. Oh, look, bad art. [/QUOTE] Yeah. that’s what I worry about- that she now gets to add “Censored Art Martyr” to her resume’. Btw, I looked up a photo & darn, she’s a cute lil’ thing. Apparently, there had also been a YouTube video up until a few days ago of her delivering a soapbox speech in a “Free Speech” program set up by her academic advisor (Pia Lindstrom IIRC). But that’s been taken down- alas. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/176 "2008-04-24T12:43:11Z")
Let’s add another dimension to the debate- if you knew her, either as a friend or an acquaintance, what would you think of her & how would you relate to her? If she stood by her story that she actually did it, I’d like to think that in the kindest way possible, I’d let her know how badly she trivialized the pain a lot of women feel about abortion, fertility & miscarriages and she owes them a public apology, and that for herself, she needs medical attention, some kind of therapy, & Jesus. If she confessed that it was a hoax, I’d be a bit more blunt & omit the advice for medical attention. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/177 "2008-04-24T13:23:23Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Let’s add another dimension to the debate- if you knew her, either as a friend or an acquaintance, what would you think of her & how would you relate to her? [/QUOTE] I’d think she was ruthlessly ambitious, and that she had been crossing the boundaries of common decency for nothing but personal gain. If she would have stood by her claim that what she did made people “aware” of something, I’d consider her also stupid, a hypocrite, or both. Either way, I’d probably would feel a deep dislike for her afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/178 "2008-04-24T15:29:18Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] if you knew her, either as a friend or an acquaintance, what would you think of her & how would you relate to her? [/QUOTE] “Hey, baby, want some sperm?” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/179 "2008-04-24T16:14:52Z")
I don’t think her work should have been banned. As has already been said, public ridicule is a much more effective tool for learning. If I knew her, I’d no longer be her friend (assuming my words didn’t influence her to change her ways) for several reasons. One, I agree that a work like this makes a mockery of those with actual fertility problems in either direction (pregnant when not wanted _or_ infertile). Two, I think she’s monumentally stupid to do something so very potentially dangerous to her body, without even seeming to have a rudimentary knowledge of women’s health, and I don’t like hanging out with stupid people much. Three, I’m pissed off whenever someone misuses medicinal herbals - while I don’t know exactly what she used, some herbs used medicinally are threatened or endangered; nothing pisses me off more than someone using endangered ginseng in chewing gum or goldenseal to try and pass a drug screen. Even if she used, say, Queen Anne’s Lace, which isn’t endangered, her being in the news for this is bound to lead other women to think that herbal abortions are safe and effective, which can only end in tears. In short, she’s stupid and irresponsible, no matter what her worth as an artist, and I don’t like hanging out with stupid and irresponsible people. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735/180 "2008-04-24T18:31:45Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] “Hey, baby, want some sperm?” [/QUOTE] I don’t think she’d go for our preferred means of delivery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-art-from-yale-student/445735.md?page=10)