# Pro-choice man must decide whether his pro-life wife has an abortion or dies. What should he do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275 "2010-12-15T20:03:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/1 "2010-12-15T20:03:53Z")
Another hypothetical. I’ll make the backstory brief. **Washington** and **Zoe** are married and in their early 40s, with two children – **Zach** , age 6, and **Winnie** , 2. Wash is pro-choice and Zoe, pro-life. Though neither is politically active, Zoe has always been passionate in her belief an unborn fetus is a person deserving of legal protection; she has said that she hopes she would never choose her own life over her unborn child’s, as she would consider that murder no less than if she and ate Winnie to avoid starvation. Washington thinks this is bullshit in general, and horrifying in particular; he loves Zoe as he loves no one else in the world and finds the idea of a world without her in it hellish; moreover, he feels that their existing children need her. They have long since agreed to disagree, as they do agree that they love one another too much to argue over something that they will never agree on. Zoe is carrying her third child, which she is quite looking forward to . Early in the preganancy – long before the fetus is viable – she collapses at work and is rushed to the hospital. Naturally, Washington rushes to the hopsital, where the doctors tell him that Zoe is unconscious and unable to communicate. In their judgment, the pregnancy must be terminated, and quickly, if she is to survive. But she has left no advance directive; they cannot do such a thing without his consent. What should Washington do? Poll coming in a minute. There might be a good reason to wait for me to put it up before responding, but damned if I can think of one. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/2 "2010-12-15T20:11:41Z")
This is ultimately a non-debate. Pro-lifers almost universally acknowledge that abortions may sometimes be necessary in order to save the mother’s life. In such situations, the physician should attempt to save both the mother and the unborn, if possible. This means a premature delivery if the unborn is viable – by C-section, if necessary. If the unborn is not yet viable, then he or she would not survive if the mother were to die, in which case the physician is clearly obligated to save the mother’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/3 "2010-12-15T20:14:39Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > This is ultimately a non-debate. Pro-lifers almost universally acknowledge that abortions may sometimes be necessary in order to save the mother’s life. The pro-lifer IN THE STORY makes no such concession, at least as regards her own life. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/4 "2010-12-15T20:15:35Z")
Since both would die if nothing is done or if the husband insisted on the doctors continuing to try to save them both, the husband would be killing both of them if he chose that option. This is, or should be, a more shameful thing for him to do (in both her and his eyes) than ending the pregnancy. Now that the poll is up - I would choose probably all of the terminate options, and for the last one, I’d say that two deaths would be worse than one. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/5 "2010-12-15T20:16:30Z")
If Zoe dies before the unborn child is viable, then the unborn child will die. So the choice is loss of one life, or loss of two lives. Yes, it’s a no-brainer, even for the strictest pro-lifer. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/6 "2010-12-15T20:24:52Z")
Ditto the last two. What kind of \ would do otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/7 "2010-12-15T20:25:26Z")
Taking the hypothetical and clarification as written, I would respect Zoe’s wishes, and not authorize the abortion. Yes, that will kill her…and another piece of whatever soul I may have left, but to do otherwise would fail to recognize Zoe for what she is. When the children are old enough, I will tell them what I did, and why. Maybe they’ll forgive me. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/8 "2010-12-15T20:28:12Z")
This fetus is dead either way. I’d authorize to terminate the pregnancy and tell her the truth: the fetus had died and had to be removed to save her life. Basically this is a miscarriage. It sucks, but its better than the death of a wife and mother. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/9 "2010-12-15T20:28:55Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > This is ultimately a non-debate. Pro-lifers almost universally acknowledge that abortions may sometimes be necessary in order to save the mother’s life. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The pro-lifer IN THE STORY makes no such concession, at least as regards her own life. I believe the catholic church has canonized at least a couple women for choosing to die rather than abort their unborn children. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/10 "2010-12-15T20:29:37Z")
Zoe would not be giving her life for the child, so Washington can authorise the termination with a clear conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/11 "2010-12-15T20:31:31Z")
The lack of consistency of views in this poll is remarkable. The most common simplistic argument for abortion rights is that it is the woman’s body and she can do what she chooses no matter what because of that. Now, the situation is changed away from the standard one and people are saying that they would do whatever they want with her body regardless of what she wants because it matches up better with the outcome they want. That isn’t logically defensible. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/12 "2010-12-15T20:35:15Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > If Zoe dies before the unborn child is viable, then the unborn child will die. So the choice is loss of one life, or loss of two lives. Yes, it’s a no-brainer, even for the strictest pro-lifer. [Gianna Beretta Molla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianna_Beretta_Molla) might disagree with you. 'Cept she can’t, on account of being dead and thus unable to use the interwebs. From the Wikipedia article: > [@](#): > > Final pregnancy > > In 1961, Gianna was once again expecting. During the second month, Gianna developed a fibroma on her uterus. After examination, the doctors gave her three choices: an abortion, a complete hysterectomy, or removal of only the fibroma. Though the Catholic Church forbids all direct abortion even when the woman’s life is in danger, Catholic teaching would have allowed her to undergo a hysterectomy, which would have resulted in her unborn child’s death as an unintended side-effect. > > “Abortion – that is, the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability or the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus – is never permitted…Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child.” > > Gianna opted for the removal of the fibroma, wanting to preserve her child’s life. > > After the operation, complications continued throughout her pregnancy. Gianna was quite clear about her wishes, expressing to her family, “This time it will be a difficult delivery, and they may have to save one or the other – I want them to save my baby.” > > On April 21, 1962, Good Friday of that year, Gianna went to the hospital, where her fourth child, Gianna Emanuela, was successfully delivered via Caesarean section.[1] However, Gianna continued to have severe pain, and died of septic peritonitis 7 days after the birth. She was canonized five years back. For those of you who would go against Zoe’s implicit decision: what if she were conscious when Washington arrived at the hospital, and remained so long enough to say that she did not consent? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/13 "2010-12-15T20:39:31Z")
Gianna’s situation has an important difference: she sacrificed herself to save the baby. In the OP, there is no chance of saving the baby in any case. I’m pro-life, but this is a no-brainer for me too. Save the mother, if that’s all you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/14 "2010-12-15T20:40:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [Gianna Beretta Molla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianna_Beretta_Molla) might disagree with you. 'Cept she can’t, on account of being dead and thus unable to use the interwebs. The problem is that it’s not the same as the hypothetical in the OP: Saint Gianna’s child lived. In your hypothetical there is no possibility that the unborn child will live. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/15 "2010-12-15T20:40:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The pro-lifer IN THE STORY makes no such concession, at least as regards her own life. Your OP merely says that the pro-lifer left no explicit directive. That’s a subtle but significant distinction. If the physicians deem that an abortion is NECESSARY, this must mean that the unborn cannot be delivered prematurely or that it would not survive such a delivery. Either that or the physicians are behaving irresponsibly. In such situations, there is no debate. It is better for one person to live than for both to die. Now, suppose that there were some hypothetical scenario in which only one or the other could live. This is an extremely hyopthetical situation, but for the sake of argument, let’s grant it. In such situations, the ethical thing for a physician to do would be to take the route which maximizes the chances for one of them to survive. The physician may wind up being wrong, but that would be an error in judgment, not an ethical error. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/16 "2010-12-15T20:43:11Z")
The poll does not seem to prevent me from selecting multiple answers (although I haven’t clicked the “Vote Now” button yet). Is a multiple answer okay, OP? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/17 "2010-12-15T20:44:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The poll does not seem to prevent me from selecting multiple answers (although I haven’t clicked the “Vote Now” button yet). Is a multiple answer okay, OP? Yes, you may choose multiple answers. > [@JThunder](#): > > Your OP merely says that the pro-lifer left no explicit directive. That’s a subtle but significant distinction. Put there on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/18 "2010-12-15T20:45:04Z")
I should amend that last post. Zoe did not leave an explicit concession, but in your scenario, she did say that she would not want to have to choose her life over her child’s. That’s not quite the same as a concession, but let’s grant that point anyway. Ultimately though, it’s still a non-debate. This is not a situation in which she’d have to choose her life over that of someone else. This is a situation in which she either lives, or both of them die. By no stretch of the imagination would she be giving up her life so that someone else can live. Ergo, my point still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/19 "2010-12-15T20:48:58Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The lack of consistency of views in this poll is remarkable. The most common simplistic argument for abortion rights is that it is the woman’s body and she can do what she chooses no matter what because of that. Now, the situation is changed away from the standard one and people are saying that they would do whatever they want with her body regardless of what she wants because it matches up better with the outcome they want. That isn’t logically defensible. This. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275/20 "2010-12-15T20:50:32Z")
Except, of course that she’s not sacrificing the fetus’s life to her own (which is what she said she wouldn’t do), because it’s not viable. She never said that she was willing to die WITH her fetus. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choice-man-must-decide-whether-his-pro-life-wife-has-an-abortion-or-dies-what-should-he-do/564275.md?page=2)