# Pro-choicers: is there any point in a pregnancy when the woman should no longer abort? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025 "2010-06-21T19:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/61 "2010-06-22T16:44:56Z")
Wow **wWhyNot** your story is in many ways similar to my ex’s that I mentioned right above you. Her baby is now 20 years old, last I heard she graduated high school with great grades 2 years ago, and that alone is far better than I feared at her birth. She had the eye surgery you mentioned as a youngster, does wear glasses, but other than that, AFIK (and at this point my info can be considered very sketchy so don’t hold me to it) is a typical young woman. I hope you have the same continued good fortune with yours. As for being a NICU nurse, ironically in my case, my prior gf was exactly that at another superb hospital in town. So I knew more about the ex’s situation when it happened than I would have otherwise. Anyone who reads me here knows I am not a theist, but I am sure many would say that NICU nurses are heaven-sent, even if only metaphorically. If you have what it takes, I am sure you will find it a very rewarding position. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/62 "2010-06-22T16:47:54Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I’m pro choice, but I’d generally say until the baby could be reasonably viable outside of the womb. That said, if there’s some horrible thing that’s going to cause mom to die that isn’t discovered until month 8, then I’m not necessarily opposed to it then either. That’s an extenuating circumstance, though, and not in what we’re talking about. What she said. ETA: I’d define viability as the point at which 51% of deliveries survive. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/63 "2010-06-22T17:07:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: I’d define viability as the point at which 51% of deliveries survive. That’s your ethical standard for deciding on quality of life? That it survives? Hate to tell you this, but in the end, none of us survive no matter our circumstances of birth. Ethics demands a more reasoned answer than that. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/64 "2010-06-22T17:10:00Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I hope you have the same continued good fortune with yours. > > \ > > Anyone who reads me here knows I am not a theist, but I am sure many would say that NICU nurses are heaven-sent, even if only metaphorically. If you have what it takes, I am sure you will find it a very rewarding position. Thanks, **not\_alice**! And now you know from whence my ethics in this matter are derived. Personal experience, education and a desire to reduce suffering and harm to both mother and baby. I don’t know that I’m heaven sent, exactly, but it did occur to me at some point that as someone who wants to be a nurse and actually enjoys the environment of the NICU, tragedies and all, I do feel some sort of moral responsibility to be there. It’s certainly not the place for everyone, even if they’re fantastic nurses in other units, but I hope it’s the place for me in a few years when I’m done with my training. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/65 "2010-06-22T17:23:47Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > That’s your ethical standard for deciding on quality of life? That it survives? It’s not about quality of life. It’s about _life._ Before viability, it’s a potential person; after viability, it’s a person. My definition of viability is _not_ a hard and fast rule. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/66 "2010-06-22T18:06:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not about quality of life. It’s about _life._ Before viability, it’s a potential person; after viability, it’s a person. > > My definition of viability is _not_ a hard and fast rule. So how, using your rule, would a mother and society as a whole negotiate whether or not her particular abortion is acceptable to society or not? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/67 "2010-06-22T18:12:02Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > So how, using your rule, would a mother and society as a whole negotiate whether or not her particular abortion is acceptable to society or not? They wouldn’t, obviously. They’d start another thread, and I’d participate in that. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Also, bear in mind I’m not asking what should be **legal** or **allowed**. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/68 "2010-06-22T18:16:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > A little housekeeping ere we begin. > > Let’s take it as a given that we’re talking about cases in which there is no medical necessity for an abortion: that is, the continued survival of the fetus presents no danger to the life or health of the mother. Let’s also assume that the fetus itself, so long as the woman knows, is entirely healthy, and that she has the financial resources to support herself throughout the pregnancy. In short, the woman in question has decided, for whatever reasons, that she does not wish to become a mother. > > And, before anyone complains, OF COURSE there’s no option for “The woman should never have an abortion.” That’s the anti-abortion position; including it in this poll would be like asking: “Gay men who find woman erotically repulsive: who is hotter, Natalie Portman or Kristen Bell?” If you feel like arguing that abortion should be categorically verboten, click [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=7) and have it it. > > Okay then. It will take me a minute or two to get the poll running. See, I can’t vote on this, because you are asking my personal opinion regarding ANOTHER WOMAN’S abortion, not my OWN, and that inherently frames this as something someone else should have a say in. My OWN personal opinion, for MYSELF, is that given the scenario laid out above, _I_ would consider anytime past say, the 1st trimester too late. If I have not gotten around to it by then, I would carry it through and give up for adoption or keep the resulting child. But again, I can’t make such a judgement for anyone else. And given that scenarios vary so widely, I remain opposed to any limitations being imposed regardless. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/69 "2010-06-22T18:39:24Z")
I’m very liberal in my beliefs. It should all come down to suffering and awareness. The fetus, even if it would be born into a loving, decent home, doens’t have any intrinsic right to be born. Killing it won’t harm it, because it’s completely unaware. It would be like asking someone how they felt about being dead before they were born: the question has no meaning. Therefore, I’m for any abortion at any time, for any reason. All ethically approved ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/70 "2010-06-22T19:02:23Z")
I’m on the “brainwaves” side of the argument, by analogy with brain death. Before the brain starts doing its thing, I do not believe the fetus has personhood. After there are brainwaves, that’s a fairly useful and sufficiently (if not completely) non-arbitrary way of determining that it’s a (legal or ethical) “person” now and not just a clump of developing cells. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/71 "2010-06-22T19:10:34Z")
You asked my opinion on ethics and I am (thus far) one of two people who chose “sometime before month 8.” Why did I choose that? I can’t rightly tell you. But I _can_ tell you why I didn’t choose the two most popular answers I didn’t choose “Abortion is ethically allowable at any time before birth” because that option allows for scenarios like a woman going into labor and saying “you know what? This whole baby thing was a mistake and I want it aborted.” That sounds ridiculous on its face and, I’ll agree, it’s about as extreme an example as you can get. But your poll’s second choice was “any time before the 9th month” which means that this answer should allow for decisions to be made anytime after that. I didn’t choose “Abortion is ethically allowable only when the fetus could not be viable outside the womb,” because we run into all sorts of other problems in this scenario. What is viable? Could you be viable at 5 months as a 1 pound baby spending the next 6 months in ICU and having lifelong problems? Yes. But how is that a fair benchmark? And should women in 1980 have been granted up until the 7th month because medical science wasn’t at a stage where viability was an option? By selectiing this option, we continually shrink the woman’s window of a right to choose as medical technology grows stronger. Neither option seemed right to me. So I picked 8 months or before. I mean, honestly, if you can’t make up your mind by then… ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/72 "2010-06-22T19:19:44Z")
I’m probably too pro-life to answer this question, but I’m with several others in saying that there is no bright line along the way from conception to birth that really makes sense as an ethical boundary. I’m ok in principle with the first trimester as being mostly the LEGAL boundary because I hope it encourages women in need of abortions to have them earlier in the pregnancy, when we (as society) are less aware that all it requires is tincture of time to bring a healthy baby into the world. There’s a part of me which abhors any abortion, and a part of me which recognizes that a world with safe, legal, and rare abortions is better than a world where any of those qualifiers is missing. And in cases where a healthy baby may not result, or a healthy baby may result but at the cost of the woman’s health, I think putting the woman’s health first is generally an ethical choice. Not neccessarily the only ethical choice, not neccessarily the best choice, but in some circumstances, even a very late term abortion is an ethical choice. But there’s no power which can compel me to click “anytime before birth”, because I worry that it sends the wrong message–makes abortion sound more neccessary and less evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/73 "2010-06-22T20:37:57Z")
Strongly pro-choice here, and I voted “until \”. I thought about saying “until viable outside the womb”, then I reread the OP where it describes a situation in which there is no danger to the mother, the woman has adequate financial resources etc… and realized that in that situation, I feel it is unethical at any time. However, I recognize that someone else’s opinion may be very different, and I do NOT think my opinion is so more valid that I would prevent them from being able to make that decision. Persuade? yeah… if a friend of mine were in that situation I’d try to make sure she knew of the options. Other circumstances? rape / incest / health of mother / teen incapable of parenting… my inclination is “until viable” because after that point, the options are “deliver the baby, which will live” or “kill the baby”. I’ll drive the woman to the clinic and hold her hand beforehand and then most likely go off somewhere and cry during the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/74 "2010-06-23T00:04:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They wouldn’t, obviously. They’d start another thread, and I’d participate in that. OK then, since I think the law is a representation of a system of ethics we all agree to in some social contract, but I recognize that others might draw from additional traditions, can you clarify how you decide what is “ethical” as opposed to what is “legal” or “allowed”? Is there something the rest of us can put our hands on in some sense? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/75 "2010-06-23T00:07:20Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > By selectiing this option, we continually shrink the woman’s window of a right to choose as medical technology grows stronger. And that is part of the anti-choice argument too. > [@](#): > > So I picked 8 months or before. I mean, honestly, if you can’t make up your mind by then… …you should be forced to have a baby you ultimately decided you didn’t want? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/76 "2010-06-23T00:09:19Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > Not neccessarily the only ethical choice, not neccessarily the best choice, but in some circumstances, even a very late term abortion is an ethical choice. Wow. What situation would you devalue the mother’s health and future well being to be less than that of the fetus? ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/77 "2010-06-23T01:03:39Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Wow. What situation would you devalue the mother’s health and future well being to be less than that of the fetus? If the mother herself values the future well being of the fetus more than she does her own life. Or in the gray areas of statistics, where immediate treatment for cancer (or whatever) has a high likelihood of success, and treatment two weeks later has a medium high likelihood of success, but greatly increases the likelihood that Baby will thrive. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/78 "2010-06-23T01:08:47Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > If the mother herself values the future well being of the fetus more than she does her own life. Or in the gray areas of statistics, where immediate treatment for cancer (or whatever) has a high likelihood of success, and treatment two weeks later has a medium high likelihood of success, but greatly increases the likelihood that Baby will thrive. Who gets to make either of those calls, and how do they make them? ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/79 "2010-06-23T01:22:55Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Who gets to make either of those calls, and how do they make them? In a perfect world, the doctor provides the appropriate information to the mother and respects her wishes in the matter. Look, I’m sorry, but I do not wish to pick apart my thought process any furthur. I have admitted to probably being too pro-life to answer this question fairly, but I gave it my best shot. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025/80 "2010-06-23T01:31:28Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > In a perfect world, the doctor provides the appropriate information to the mother and respects her wishes in the matter. > > Look, I’m sorry, but I do not wish to pick apart my thought process any furthur. I have admitted to probably being too pro-life to answer this question fairly, but I gave it my best shot. So some random doctor, who will be subject to no pressure or regulation of course, gets to recommend which of the mother or fetus gets to live or die, and the mother has no say at all as to what the doctor’s role is, nor does the rest of society since our interests are proxied through the doctor. OK. Good to know 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-is-there-any-point-in-a-pregnancy-when-the-woman-should-no-longer-abort/544025.md?page=5)